Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:45:45 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:45:45 -0400 Received: from dsl-213-023-039-078.arcor-ip.net ([213.23.39.78]:19328 "EHLO starship") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:45:44 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Daniel Phillips To: Pete Zaitcev Subject: Re: [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:53:15 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: linux-usb-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References:

<20020915020739.A22101@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20020915020739.A22101@devserv.devel.redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2007 Lines: 44 On Sunday 15 September 2002 08:07, Pete Zaitcev wrote: > > From: Daniel Phillips > > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:10:00 +0200 > > >[...] > > Let's try a different show of hands: How many users would be happier if > > they knew that kernel developers are using modern techniques to improve > > the quality of the kernel? > > I do not see how using a debugger improves a quality of the kernel. It improves my quality of life, that would be enough by itself. And since I am doing this purely for my own satisfaction at the moment, I *will not* waste my time screwing around with 60's tools because somebody who is paid whether or not they work productively thinks they imbue the kernel with some kind of airy-fairy zen quality. Look, we tried the zen state thing. It didn't work. Think about the madness in the period between 2.3 and 2.4, with one oops after another reported to the list, each taking days or weeks to track down. Sure, it allowed Linus and Al to show off their superior powers of cerebration, solving the things given only a few lines of oops as a result, but it sure fucked everything else up. As I recall, it wasn't fun at all in the end, not for Linus or Al either, and some folks got pretty close to burned out. The answer to the question "is this sillyness slowing down development and reducing the quality of the kernel?" is "yes". I don't have to speculate about that any more, I've seen it enough with my own eyes. Now ask yourself who the most productive hackers are today, and ask yourself if they are using the good ol zen state blunt edged tools. > Good thinking and coding does improve kernel quality. Debugger > certainly does not help if someone cannot code. Sorry, but you are full of shit. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/