Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:08:27 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:08:26 -0400 Received: from bitmover.com ([192.132.92.2]:37808 "EHLO mail.bitmover.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:08:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:13:18 -0700 From: Larry McVoy To: Alan Cox Cc: Larry McVoy , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 Message-ID: <20020915191318.C22354@work.bitmover.com> Mail-Followup-To: Larry McVoy , Alan Cox , Larry McVoy , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References:

<20020915190435.GA19821@nevyn.them.org> <20020915162412.A17345@work.bitmover.com> <20020915234108.GA1348@nevyn.them.org> <20020915165235.B17345@work.bitmover.com> <1032139750.26911.20.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1032139750.26911.20.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>; from alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk on Mon, Sep 16, 2002 at 02:29:10AM +0100 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2600 Lines: 46 On Mon, Sep 16, 2002 at 02:29:10AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Mon, 2002-09-16 at 00:52, Larry McVoy wrote: > > If your company has such a poor business model that they can't afford to > > pay you enough to take the time to do a good job then find a different > > place to work. No amount of debugger "help" is going to make up for a > > lack of understanding. > > Maybe he works at a company with a good enough business model to realise > that people who can't or won't use tools for pet high horse reasons are > ineffeciencies that are best "downsized" either in ego or personnel > count. You are completely missing the point. I explictly stated that debuggers are just fine with me, I don't really care one way or the other. I also stated that I use debuggers and I'm OK with other people using them as well. Where's the "won't use tools for pet high horse reasons"? Nowhere. My comments, which I stand behind now and will stand behind 10 years from now, are based on the fact that people who don't understand the code shouldn't be modifying the code. If a debugger helps you understand the code, go for it. However, my experience is that what he was saying resonates with "I'm going in to fix this problem so I can get back to work on my real project". And that is almost always wrong. If the problem was that bloody simple don't you think the original author of the code would have fixed it already? It's almost never as simple as a naive point of view thinks it is and that's exactly why you don't want people hacking about in that code. Either understand it and really fix it, own it, maintain it, live with it, or leave it alone. You may have a different opinion, Alan, and that's fine. All that means is that you won't ever work here. One of the nice things about being the guy who runs the company is that you get to insist on a certain level of competence and professionalism or you're fired. It's one of the reasons I don't work for someone else, I like being able to say "do it right or don't do it, I pay the bills, that's what I want". I learned that at Sun, over my every objection because I was an idiot, but I learned it. After you learn the benefits of doing things right you have nothing but pity for people who do it wrong. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/