Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1754762Ab3GOSqo (ORCPT ); Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:46:44 -0400 Received: from mga02.intel.com ([134.134.136.20]:5225 "EHLO mga02.intel.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752195Ab3GOSqn (ORCPT ); Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:46:43 -0400 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,670,1367996400"; d="scan'208";a="345992525" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:46:42 -0700 From: Sarah Sharp To: Linus Torvalds Cc: Ingo Molnar , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Steven Rostedt , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , Darren Hart Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Message-ID: <20130715184642.GE15531@xanatos> References: <20130715155202.GC29526@xanatos> <20130715174659.GC15531@xanatos> <20130715180403.GD15531@xanatos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5162 Lines: 108 On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:17:06AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Sarah Sharp > wrote: > > > > However, I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst > > offenders when it comes to verbally abusing people and publicly tearing > > their emotions apart. > > Yes. And I do it partly (mostly) because it's who I am, and partly > because I honestly despise being subtle or "nice". > > The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I > can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I > say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle", and I mean > it. > > And I definitely am not willing to string people along, either. I've > had that happen too - not telling people clearly enough that I don't > like their approach, they go on to re-architect something, and get > really upset when I am then not willing to take their work. You can tell developers in no uncertain terms that you're not willing to take their work *without* verbally tearing them apart. You're Linus Torvalds, for crying out loud! I simple, "No, that's a bad idea, stop working on this RIGHT now," is more than enough from you. If it's not, well, those people are just dense and can probably put up with stronger language. > Sarah, first off, I don't have that many tools at hand. Secondly, I > simply don't believe in being polite or politically correct. Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions, and ask them to fit it without resorting to tearing them down emotionally: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=136130347127908&w=2 You just don't want to take the time to be polite to everyone. Don't give me the "I'm not polite" card. Go write some documentation about what's acceptable for stable. While you're at it, write some more documentation about why it's impossible for you to revert merges, so maintainers know not to send you crap, or piss away time trying to argue with you that they don't need to fix regressions. When maintainers challenge you, point them to it, and say, "Fix this now." If they protest, then you can bring out the big threats and say, "If you don't fix this, I won't pull from you the next merge window. Go find a backup maintainer that can handle your tree, and train them for the next release. You may need to hand over your maintainership to them." If the maintainer doesn't have sub-maintainers that could take over, that's a problem we need to fix *before* things like this happen. We should discuss which kernel subsystems don't have backups at KS. There are other tools at hand. You just don't use them. > And you can point at all those cultural factors where some cultures > are not happy with confrontation (and feel free to make it about > gender too - I think that's almost entirely cultural too). And please > bring up "cultural sensitivity" while at it. And I'll give you back > that same "cultural sensitivity". Please be sensitive to _my_ culture > too. > > Google "management by perkele". > > Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority > compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural > sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing. Did I mention minorities here at all? Nope. My only comment was that I wasn't going to be a "nice girl" anymore, which is a comment about my personality, not about the discussion at hand. *No one* deserves to be yelled at IN ALL CAPS in email, or publicly ridiculed. It doesn't matter if they are a minority or not. You are in a position of power. Stop verbally abusing your developers. > And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also > serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open > about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn > hard to read people over email, I think you need to be *more* honest > and *more* open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always. *Snort*. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite". > And yes, I'll happily be part of the discussion at the KS. But I think > you also need to be aware that your "high horse" isn't necessarily all > that high. Dude, I'm not on a horse here. I'm not asking you to change your communication styles in order to help minorities. I'm not some crazy feminist ranting about cooties on Google+. I'm trying to improve the kernel mailing lists for all developers. We can give negative technical feedback without verbal abuse. Sarah Sharp -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/