Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751901Ab3GPGON (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:14:13 -0400 Received: from 1wt.eu ([62.212.114.60]:34697 "EHLO 1wt.eu" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751446Ab3GPGOL (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:14:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:13:41 +0200 From: Willy Tarreau To: NeilBrown Cc: Sarah Sharp , Linus Torvalds , Ingo Molnar , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Steven Rostedt , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , Darren Hart Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Message-ID: <20130716061341.GD12242@1wt.eu> References: <20130715155202.GC29526@xanatos> <20130715174659.GC15531@xanatos> <20130715180403.GD15531@xanatos> <20130715184642.GE15531@xanatos> <20130715191727.GC10157@1wt.eu> <20130716084036.41a9c498@notabene.brown> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130716084036.41a9c498@notabene.brown> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5075 Lines: 97 Hi Neil, On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:40:36AM +1000, NeilBrown wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:17:27 +0200 Willy Tarreau wrote: > > > Communication works two ways. > > I understand that to mean (at least) that for communication, every message > must be both sent and received. So when constructing a message, it is > important to think about how others will understand it. Yes, and I'd say that "others" here is "most of the readers". I've been using that in some large companies, sometimes people do wrong things and defend themselves of stupid choices by putting tens of people in copy to try to cover their ass. This is where I please myself. I only assemble nice words that everyone understands to build sentences that several readers will interprete with a varying degree of aggressivity. The aggressivity is at its top for the target, but non-existent for the most external readers. You end up with a person justifying him/herself in public about something apparently not existing, till the point where someone high asks "what are you talking about, care to elaborate?". You get impressive results this way, wrong projects being aborted, budgets to fix others. Not a single bad word, yet it is an extermely unpleasant experience for the target who feels naked in public and hates me. Quite frankly these persons would prefer a single hard e-mail from Linus than a week long of chess game like this. So yes, everyone's understanding is important. > On a public email list there are an awful lot of "others", and it is very > likely that any possible misunderstanding will be experienced by someone. > I think it best to minimise opportunities for misunderstanding. Yes exactly, especially for non-native readers who don't always understand some cultural jokes. There were a number of non-important jokes I didn't catch in this thread and that are not important. However generally when Linus gives someone his "appreciation" for a given work, there is very little room for misinterpretation, which is fine. He once severely scolded me on the sec list for insisting on proposing a fix for an issue I misunderstood. I had all the colorful details to understand the issue and to realize that I was lacking some skills in the specific area subject of the issue. > > Sure it can be hard for newcomers but I don't remember having read him > > scold a newcomer. > > I think that is not relevant. He is scolding people senior developers in > front of newcomers. That is not likely to encourage people to want to become > senior developers. I'm not that sure, because instead newcomers think "this guy is a bastard, I don't want to work with him, I'll work with maintainers instead". And that's what is expected. They start by focusing on a given subsystem, and as years pass, they realize that the guy with the big mouth is not that naughty, especially when he helps them design or fix their work. > Anecdote: My son (in highschool) is doing a psych assignment where he is > asking people to complete a survey which, among other things, asks about > people fear/anxiety response to various situations (it is a fairly standard > instrument I think[1]). Last few times he checked, the situation with the > highest average score was "One person bullying another". Really, it isn't > nice to watch. That's an interesting study which very likely matches reality, but here it's a bit different. The group of people is not just two guys having words together, imagine a room with hundreds or thousands of people and two in the middle fighting. They'll just get ignored by newcomers who will preferably sit down close to people who discuss calmly. I have another anecdote. A few years ago, one very discrete and respectful developer used to help me with backports of some security fixes. At some point I asked him "wouldn't you prefer to be on the sec list, it would be easier", and he replied "Linus will never accept, he once scolded me in public", and I replied "quite the opposite then, that's good for you". And when I asked, Linus said "yes of course I want him on the list, he can certainly help us". So as you see, if some people are impressed first, they can still be brought in front of the one they fear and realize that they were thinking wrong. It can seem counter-producting first (as Sarah thinks) but I think that the competent people find their way in this simply because they're backed up by other ones. That's how I think we get that number of skilled people at the top of each subsystem. And last, from some feedback I got, I would suspect that some top developers prefer one e-mail from Linus once in a while to countless e-mails from end users who repeatedly criticize their work when something does not work like they expect for whatever reasons (including PEBKAC). Best regards, Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/