Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S934032Ab3GPWNb (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:13:31 -0400 Received: from cantor2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:53230 "EHLO mx2.suse.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S933329Ab3GPWN3 (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:13:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 08:13:12 +1000 From: NeilBrown To: James Bottomley Cc: Linus Torvalds , ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , Darren Hart , Linux Kernel Mailing List , stable , Ingo Molnar Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Message-ID: <20130717081312.0227d85a@notabene.brown> In-Reply-To: <1373999229.2148.87.camel@dabdike> References: <20130715155202.GC29526@xanatos> <20130715174659.GC15531@xanatos> <20130715180403.GD15531@xanatos> <20130715184642.GE15531@xanatos> <20130715195316.GF15531@xanatos> <20130715204135.GH15531@xanatos> <1373926109.17876.221.camel@gandalf.local.home> <1373999229.2148.87.camel@dabdike> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0 (GTK+ 2.24.18; x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/H7AC/5b5cL17HhKhYCfqpdi"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5427 Lines: 126 --Sig_/H7AC/5b5cL17HhKhYCfqpdi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:27:09 +0400 James Bottomley wrote: > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt w= rote: > > > > > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly dou= bt > > > we would solve anything, but it certainly would be a fun segment to > > > watch :-) > >=20 > > I think we should, because I think it's the kind of thing we really > > need at the KS - talking about "process". >=20 > Can you formulate the process issue to discuss? I've heard "Linus needs > to yell less at people" and "the mailing lists need to be more > 'professional'" neither of which seems to identify an actual process. > Are we perhaps discussing guidelines for giving feedback on patches? >=20 > > At the same time, I really don't know what the format would possibly > > be like for it to really work as a reasonable discussion. And I think > > that is important, because this kind of subject is *not* likely > > possible in the traditional "people sit around tables and maybe > > somebody has a few slides" format. >=20 > > A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very > > different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on > > the tables? That could be fun. And I'm serious, although we might want > > to limit the size of the fruit to smaller berries ;) >=20 > How about Lychees? They're prickly on the outside, very wet on the > inside and have large stones ... >=20 > But what are the viewpoints? "maintainers need to yell more"? > "maintainers need to yell less"? I don't think I agree with either. > I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of > civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to > do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument > doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to > see universally imposed. In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like > to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover > for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way > to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat. I agree that we don't want a formal "standard of behaviour" - it would be j= ust as bad as the standard for white space. I also agree that "by example" is the best way to affect behaviour standard= s. However this effect can be positive or negative (or both). And different people have widely varying opportunities to demonstrate behaviour. So I don't think this is about saying "maintainer need to do X". It is about a non-trivial (I believe) section of the community saying "We a= re bothered by the current de facto behavioural standard" i.e. it is feed back to those in a position to set standards, that their behaviour is having a negative effect beyond their apparent intention. Or if you want a sound-bite: With great power comes great responsibility. Are we being responsible? The particular issue that I see is the venting of negative emotion. Email = is a particularly bad medium for communicating emotion. People will *not* hear what you are trying to say if it is couched in strongly emotional terms. It isn't the particular word choice or whether the emotion is directed at a person, or a piece of code, or a cat photo. The presence of negative emoti= on in an email will drown out everything else (for some readers at least, many I believe, certainly not all). So my personal perspective on what it means to be responsible is: Don't flame: include the facts, exclude the emotion. I have no desire to impose this on others, but I'm happy when people impose= it (or something like it) on themselves. NeilBrown >=20 > James >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ksummit-2013-discuss mailing list > Ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-2013-discuss --Sig_/H7AC/5b5cL17HhKhYCfqpdi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIVAwUBUeXFeDnsnt1WYoG5AQKEqA/8D+jNUHlhoUbSfJy+gcf9nsF7/VHtbEoc t7Wlwm09mVmo+H+URf3mEmNyuKMpfg+/jRrGJtMg73VMKnemP0lGFUkNpSoRpwXm bdkAxm/h9AaFfncbsByEkkQkGFKpfj9SLEQP2x/XncPKbnJRuwys7ZGrCwnuZ9h9 dnONFEklmSi6FQjlH9J0y15G4xR0jjfYTg2AQ0UG8TDUOjZiL1tt7yv4ZwYWA8mM TSMVgsnJoE19MjTNys4IT9hL63YPrqEbOC9K575Pu+plHq6+pJ5Axd3tq7KUJeLV mr1xVRrnAAnnWCgNiTp0hzUjdPeSHD5tTNc0j1vag6SysA5/b6oJdHALBQga/ssg uu/8p/xX1ds4303eO0FDFCiiD9oQEVVgxoEG5t6xI70I3B/TBgfS+VQ/WonIMbia j9F2oQDUoc4rQWvvcBYOsbHs5tTr3PpWQ68H2BliEP5jjtVUV0d0/lOPvRdfcwpQ LkHPBXXqlEczCVaTdRPCwL8nWbtqxxHmKlvfpJwpFwJ6vNQHbt9ero6OVcqHiwqz +hc051P8pniaCjlWYPG1H1QtbzCmvR/EHMNDMCljy1/q15ENmd2hoKbc1eVGPsAd w4O/2Ti12nQSROUrrQCZRan+OCiRcy0ersGm8uyND0f3fp6stpdhYhjhLVaJpua/ nOYiiZNVpu0= =FCMp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/H7AC/5b5cL17HhKhYCfqpdi-- -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/