Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S933858Ab3GPXgb (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:36:31 -0400 Received: from mail-yh0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52]:64061 "EHLO mail-yh0-f52.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S933573Ab3GPXg3 (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:31:20 -0400 From: Ric Wheeler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130625 Thunderbird/17.0.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sarah Sharp CC: Steven Rostedt , David Lang , ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , Darren Hart , Olivier Galibert , stable , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Willy Tarreau , Linus Torvalds , Ingo Molnar Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML References: <20130715204135.GH15531@xanatos> <1373926109.17876.221.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130715223615.GI15531@xanatos> <20130716211235.GG4994@xanatos> <20130716212704.GB9371@thunk.org> <20130716224357.GK4994@xanatos> <1374015299.6458.76.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130716231217.GL4994@xanatos> In-Reply-To: <20130716231217.GL4994@xanatos> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2174 Lines: 48 On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: >> >>> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their >>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others >>> simply don't give a shit. So we need to figure out how to meet >>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility. >> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand, >> but ... >> >> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here? > Personal attacks are not cool Steve. Some people simply don't care if a > verbal tirade is directed at them. Others do not want anyone to attack > them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code. > > Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are > discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally > abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or > intense belittling, demeaning comments about code. > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the > baseline of "good" behavior is. We need to define what behavior we want > from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" and > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks". That needs to be > written down somewhere, and it isn't. If it's documented somewhere, > point me to the file in Documentation. Hint: it's not there. > > That is the problem. > > Sarah Sharp The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective as a community. Getting the balance right is clearly difficult in a large, diverse community, but I do think that the key is to focus criticism on the code or technical arguments and avoid attacks on the individual. Being direct and funny in a critique is not the core of the issue, Ric -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/