Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932407Ab3GQPMU (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:12:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]:37635 "EHLO mail-wg0-f52.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S932218Ab3GQPMS (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:12:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20130717144043.GA16513@xanatos> References: <1373932170.28142.24.camel@envy.home> <864nbv9qcm.fsf@void.printf.net> <1373944014.17876.255.camel@gandalf.local.home> <51E4BFA9.1030600@zytor.com> <1373991399.6458.6.camel@gandalf.local.home> <51E59F79.1040903@zytor.com> <20130717144043.GA16513@xanatos> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:12:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML From: Felipe Contreras To: Sarah Sharp Cc: Stefano Stabellini , "H. Peter Anvin" , Steven Rostedt , Chris Ball , Darren Hart , Linus Torvalds , Ingo Molnar , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Willy Tarreau Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2834 Lines: 58 On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:01:02AM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> I know you think "being nice" is better, but do you actually have any >> evidence for this, or is it just wishful thinking? If you don't have >> hard evidence, then I'd say you have to admit it's simply your >> opinion, and I don't think the most successful software project in >> history should change one if it's core principles simply because *you* >> think it should. > > I haven't shared any "hard evidence" that civility works better in open > source projects, because to do so would be to bring gender politics into > the equation. I don't want to make this into a gendered issue, but > since you want hard numbers, I will. > > Go look at Dreamwidth, the open source Livejournal fork. It has a good > code of conduct, so developers are civil to each other. They encourage > all patch submissions, and take the time to work with people who don't > understand their community rules. > > The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > project, your developers need to be civil, and not verbally abuse each > other. First of all, correlation doesn't imply causation. Second, that's *one* data-point, it can hardly be considered hard evidence. Anyway, through the discussion it has been established that swearing is rare, most of often directed to the code, and on exceptional occasions directed to people, when they *deserve* it. And you seem to be implying that women can't tolerate that, so a change needs to be made in order to attract more women to the project. Is that correct? Personally I don't believe that. Essentially every other open source project out there, except the Linux kernel, has some kind code of conduct, whether it's implicit or explicit, and yet they don't have many developer women either. But fine, let's suppose what you say it's true. As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. You don't like Linus' style, you don't *need* to work with Linus. If, as you say, women don't have such a thick skin, a claim that I reject (until I can see the hard evidence), and they need a civil environment, then they can stick with the maintainers that are softer, and I know there are many of them. Can they not? Personally I think they can handle criticism like any of the men in this mailing list do. Unless you royally screw up like Mauro did, you would be fine. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/