Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932439Ab3GRDRF (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:17:05 -0400 Received: from mx4-phx2.redhat.com ([209.132.183.25]:43322 "EHLO mx4-phx2.redhat.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1756488Ab3GRDRC (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:17:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:16:42 -0400 (EDT) From: CAI Qian To: Thomas Gleixner Cc: Sarah Sharp , Linus Torvalds , Ingo Molnar , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Steven Rostedt , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , Darren Hart Message-ID: <1368728064.2419741.1374117402465.JavaMail.root@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20130715155202.GC29526@xanatos> <20130715180403.GD15531@xanatos> <20130715184642.GE15531@xanatos> <20130715195316.GF15531@xanatos> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.5.82.12] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.3_GA_5664 (ZimbraWebClient - FF20 (Linux)/8.0.3_GA_5664) Thread-Topic: 3.10.1-stable review Thread-Index: KTPazhYpwNbUTwtHzeSwUcNAMvu+yw== Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 6291 Lines: 142 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Gleixner" > To: "Sarah Sharp" > Cc: "Linus Torvalds" , "Ingo Molnar" , "Guenter Roeck" > , "Greg Kroah-Hartman" , "Steven Rostedt" , > "Dave Jones" , "Linux Kernel Mailing List" , "Andrew Morton" > , "stable" , "Darren Hart" > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:42:16 AM > Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review > > On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers > > > > why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions, > > > > and ask them to fit it without resorting to tearing them down > > > > emotionally: > > > > > > Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for. > > > > > > But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them. > > > > > > I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers than > > > random people on the list. I expect more from them, and conversely > > > I'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really think > > > was not great. > > > > > > For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers, > > > and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. The > > > x86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than most > > > other pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigs > > > etc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed that > > > expected level of quality, I go to town. > > > > > Good lord. So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be > > exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known > > better"? > > I'm one of the "victims" of Linus' latest "verbal abuse". :) > > Just for the record. I got grilled by Linus several times over the > last years and I can't remember a single instance where it was > unjustified. When I see such a mail in my inbox, I know that I fucked > up royally and all I do is to figure out what I broke this time and > fix it. I don't give a rat's ass about his "abusive" language. See > below. > > > exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known > > better"? > > You know what "should have known better" stands for? > > It stands for violating trust. > > Linus simply has to trusts his top level maintainers, because he > cannot review, audit and check 10k patches which flow into his tree > every merge window himself. > > So if he finds out that someone who has his ultimate trust sends him a > pile of crap, he tells that person in his own unmisunderstandable way > that he's not amused. > > > You know what the definition of an abuser is? Someone that seeks out > > victims that they know will "just take it" and keep the abuse "between > > the two of them". They pick victims that won't fight back or report the > > abuse. > > IOW, I'm a typical victim of abuse. > > Let me clarify that. > > The person who gets away with picking me for this kind of abuse has > not been born yet. And Linus knows very well, that he gets the full > pack back from me (in some different form of "abusive language") if he > yelled at me for no reason. It's documented out there including his > apologies. > > So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So > your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim. Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that people may follow? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi_underage_prostitution_charges It called "abuse of office" or abuse of the power. > > I do not care about his swear words and rants at all, because I know > that it makes him feel better. > > That's a cultural thing. > > Where I grew up it's part of the culture to explode, let off steam and > then go and have a beer together. I strongly believe this prevents > gastric ulcer and keeps you honest. Linus and I have this kind of > relationship. We respect each other, we trust each other and when one > side fucks up we yell at each other and then meet at the bar for a > drink. > > Linus did NOT abuse me in his latest rant. He simply told me in a very > strong language that he's grumpy because I violated his trust. And > that's legitimate. It's also legitimate to do that in public because > it documents that the top level maintainers are not impeccable. And it > sets a clear expectation bar for those who want to become maintainers > of any level. > > Aside of that I completely agree with Linus, that this policital > correctness crusades are merily creating more subtle and hard to fight > forms of real abuse. > > I observe that every other day in big corporates, which have written > down code of conducts and a gazillion of rules for interaction; they > just foster dishonesty and other fallacies. > > I really prefer the honest slap from Linus than dealing with people > who signed and "comply" to some code of conduct and stab you in your > back wherever they can. > > If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone > who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to > deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant > mode, then I'm all on your side. > > Aside of that, I agree that Linus could achieve the same effect by > using a different (more palatable to you) language, but that's a > different story. > > > Thanks, > > tglx > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe stable" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/