To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Cc: lm@bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Subject: Re: Listmaster request: Do not blacklist rms@gnu.org
In-Reply-To: <20021021193131.G20688@work.bitmover.com>
References: <20021021182737.A23371@infradead.org> <20021022014015.GB23958@Master.Wizards> <3DB4AEC1.1060906@pobox.com> <3DB4B455.921467D3@digeo.com> <20021021193131.G20688@work.bitmover.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:19:35 -0400
Message-Id: <E183sO7-0003td-00@comet.linuxguru.net>
From: James Blackwell <jblack@linuxguru.net>
Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
Content-Length: 5302
Lines: 105

In lists.linux.kernel.development, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 07:13:41PM -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
>> Guys, this whole issue is never going to go away.  There are
>> legitimate views on both sides.  We just have to be accommodating.
> 
> Agreed.  One thought that occurred to me as I was tucking in my kids
> (yeah, sick that I think about this crap that much) was that both Richard
> and I are very convinced that what we are doing is good for the community.
> We have opposing views on how to do it (in this case) but it is worth
> remembering that we are both trying to help as best we are able.

Richard Stallman started the free software foundation. He built the
compiler, library and zillions of other tools that developers use on a day
to day basis. He slept at the offices of MIT while he spent his time,
effort and money building up the Free Software Foundation. 

Though many people differ with him on a wide variety of issues, he
deserves respect from all because he has devoted twenty years of his 
life to the public good.

You, on the other hand, develop and sell a proprietary software product.
You convinced a large number of kernel developers (most importantly
Linus himself) to use your proprietary product to develop free software,
so that you could tell potential customers "Gee! Look how great my
software is! It's used to develop the linux kernel!" 

You don't care about free software Larry. You're just glad that you have
a poster child to display your effort. Want proof? Look at how you have
treated numerous kernel developers when you found out that they worked
on free software projects that could potentially compete with your
software some day -- you revoke their "free" license to use your
software to work on the linux kernel! 

Richard is trying to change the world into a better place. You, however,
are trying to get rich, and you're using free software as a stepping
stone to promote your proprietary software. Nothing wrong with getting 
rich of course -- I'd love to be rich too. But you certainly don't
deserve to be lumped into the same group as RMS.


> The flame wars are inevitable when you get two strong willed people both
> trying to do the right thing in opposite ways, it's no surprise, or it
> shouldn't be.  But the thought I had was that it was worth remembering
> that Richard is trying to do the right thing for you and so am I.
> He's not the enemy, he's a friend.  

Are you trying to do the right thing, Larry? Do you think that Tom Gall
thought you were doing the right thing when you told him he could no
longer use bitkeeper to work on the kernel because he also works on
subversion? Do you think that Ingo Molnar thought you were doing the
right thing when you avoided his questions? Do you think Hans Reiser
felt like you were doing the right thing when he had to change his
timeline on Reiserfs so as to avoid competing with your project as long
as possible? 

Frankly speaking, to someone like me, it seems like you have
singlehandedly managed to cause a very sore spot amongst a lot of kernel
developers. I can't help but wonder if some day this is going to end up
causing the first serious kernel fork -- fork A with Linus Torvalds and
those that wish to use your software and fork B with everyone else that
feels like proprietary software shouldn't be used as a crutch to develop
proprietary software.

> We really ought to be able to be a lot more reasonable about all this
> stuff, we all have the same goals, we are all trying to make the world a
> better place (swell of violin music as I puke on myself for throwing out
> cliches :)  More seriously, my view is that if we're fighting amongst
> ourselves, we blew it.  We should be fighting Microsoft, they are the
> real problem, Richard isn't, the GPL isn't, BK isn't.  Let's keep our
> eye on the ball.

The ball that we're supposed to be keeping our eye on is things like not
being able to fix the driver for a printer because some company would
rather force you to pay them for software updates rather than giving you
the ability to fix something for yourself.

You should have kept out of the free software world Larry. You should
have stuck with promoting your software for the development of just
proprietary software. None of these issues would exist if you hadn't
shown on the scene.

Tomorrow I am going to call the free software foundation and
ask them for details on how to donate $100 a month towards writing a
replacement for your proprietary software that Linus will be willing to
use for developing the kernel. My sincere hope is that others will
follow suit to their ability.

After all - this does become a moot point if there's something better
than what you have to offer.


> I'm off to watch some hockey, which is even more fun than this, amazingly
> enough...  You can take the boy out of Wisconsin, but you can't take
> Wisconsin out of the boy.

Enjoy your game.

-- 
GnuPG fingerprint AAE4 8C76 58DA 5902 761D  247A 8A55 DA73 0635 7400
James Blackwell  --  Director http://www.linuxguru.net
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