Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:09:33 +0200
From: Andreas Werner <andreas.werner@men.de>
To: Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
CC: Andreas Werner <andreas.werner@men.de>, Wolfram Sang <wsa@the-dreams.de>,
        <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, <linux-i2c@vger.kernel.org>,
        <johannes.thumshirn@men.de>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2] drivers/misc/eeprom/men_eeprod: Introduce MEN Board
 Information EEPROM driver
Message-ID: <20141020100933.GC523@awelinux>
References: <cover.1413416105.git.andreas.werner@men.de>
 <d169930cfe45d4c05c79f7dd00471d732441529d.1413416105.git.andreas.werner@men.de>
 <20141016085835.GA1273@katana>
 <20141016102126.GB23256@awelinux>
 <20141016095910.GC1273@katana>
 <20141016114401.GA22506@awelinux>
 <20141020083344.GA523@awelinux>
 <20141020091141.GA15332@kroah.com>
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On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 05:11:41PM +0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:33:45AM +0200, Andreas Werner wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 01:44:02PM +0200, Andreas Werner wrote:
> > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 11:59:10AM +0200, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> > > > * PGP Signed by an unknown key
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > I do not want to parse the things in userspace because this EEPROM data
> > > > > are related to the hardware and i want to give our customer the easiest way
> > > > > to access the data without installing any tool.
> > > > 
> > > > I understand that point of view. From an upstream point of view, things
> > > > may look different, though.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I also understand your point of view :-).
> > > Most customers wants just to have a running system without installing anything.
> > > And for me an EEPROM is so simple and should not need a complicated way
> > > to access it.
> > > 
> > > > > The current state to read the eeprom data is, that customer needs to install a big
> > > > > environment where the tool is integrated to have access to those kind of simple
> > > > > data or they have to write their own code.
> > > > 
> > > > i2cget from i2c-tools? You could do a simple shell script to parse the
> > > > data. Or do a board specific hook which reads the data and prints it to
> > > > the logfiles...
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes of course there are a lot of possibilities. This was just an example
> > > what we currently use and what was developed years ago.
> > > 
> > > With a driver like this you can also define read only attributes to prevent customer
> > > to write or modify the data in the production section. With i2ctools you can just
> > > write any data to it you want.
> > > 
> > > > > > Consider how bloated the sysfs-ABI might get if every vendor who uses an
> > > > > > eeprom wants to expose the data this way?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes and no. The possible sysfs entries gets bloated if every vendor will do it
> > > > > like this way, but normally there is just one Board EEPROM on the board, therefore
> > > > > only one driver gets loaded.
> > > > 
> > > > I am not talking about runtime here, I don't care about that. I am
> > > > talking about the ABI we create and we have to maintain basically
> > > > forever. And with vendor specific configuartion data I have doubts with
> > > > that being stable.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Ok, but i do not think that we can make a "general" ABI definition for those kind
> > > of devices because every vendor will have its own data in the EEPROM which he want
> > > to have.
> > > 
> > > > > I mean its the same for every i2c device like a temperature sensor, I can also
> > > > > read it from userspace without any special hwmon driver.
> > > > 
> > > > These is a HUGE difference. If I read tempX_input, I don't need to care
> > > > if the sensor is I2C or SPI or whatever. The kernel abstracts that away.
> > > > The files you create are for your I2C EEPROM only. Data gets
> > > > "reformatted" and access gets hidden, but nothing is abstracted away.
> > > > It would be different if we had a generic convention for "serial_id" or
> > > > stuff like that. But as configuration data is highly specific I don't
> > > > see this coming.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > For a standard sysfs interface it is a huge difference yes. At the point
> > > of few from the EEPROM device it is a device like a temp sensor which
> > > could be different from vendor to vendor.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Andy
> > >
> > 
> > Greg what do you think about that driver as a Maintainer of the sysfs?
> 
> I maintain the sysfs core that drivers use, I don't dictate the policy
> that those drivers create and send to userspace, that is up to the
> maintainer of the subsystem.  There are some basic rules of sysfs (one
> value per file), but other than that, please work with the maintainer to
> come up with an interface that will work for all types of this device,
> not just a one-off interface which does not scale at all, as Wolfram has
> pointed out.
> 

Ok.

> > To we have other ways to get those kind of drivers in the mainline kernel?
> 
> Yes, work on a common interface that your driver can use, and it can be
> accepted.  Why do you not want to do that?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> greg k-h

I have never talked about that I do not want to do it. I just want to discuss
it with you.

Right now we are at a point that i know that those kind of drivers can't be upstream
and i will try to find a way of abstraction to get it upstream.

Thanks
Andy
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