Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1753520AbaJ0QKB (ORCPT ); Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:10:01 -0400 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]:34098 "EHLO relay4-d.mail.gandi.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753014AbaJ0QJ6 (ORCPT ); Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:09:58 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 83.155.44.161 Message-ID: <1414426146.30379.62.camel@hadess.net> Subject: Re: A desktop environment[1] kernel wishlist From: Bastien Nocera To: Andy Lutomirski Cc: "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:09:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <1413881397.30379.7.camel@hadess.net> <5446B3CC.1080904@amacapital.net> <1414418126.30379.47.camel@hadess.net> <1414424723.30379.59.camel@hadess.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.12.7 (3.12.7-1.fc21) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 09:08 -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote: > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 08:12 -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote: > >> On Oct 27, 2014 6:56 AM, "Bastien Nocera" wrote: > >> > > >> > On Tue, 2014-10-21 at 12:28 -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote: > >> > > On 10/21/2014 01:49 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > >> > > > Hey, > >> > > > > >> > > > GNOME has had discussions with kernel developers in the past, and, > >> > > > fortunately, in some cases we were able to make headway. > >> > > > > >> > > > There are however a number of items that we still don't have solutions > >> > > > for, items that kernel developers might not realise we'd like to rely > >> > > > on, or don't know that we'd make use of if merged. > >> > > > > >> > > > I've posted this list at: > >> > > > https://wiki.gnome.org/BastienNocera/KernelWishlist > >> > > > > >> > > > Let me know on-list or off-list if you have any comments about those, so > >> > > > I can update the list. > >> > > > >> > > I don't know much about desktop environment infrastructure, but I think > >> > > the kernel probably already has a lot of what's needed for LinuxApps. > >> > > > >> > > Tools like Sandstorm [1] (shameless plug, but it's a good example here) > >> > > can already sandbox normal-ish programs, and those sandboxes can be > >> > > launched without privilege [2]. > >> > > > >> > > Why is kdbus needed? > >> > > >> > Because it sucks less than passing fd's and using home-made protocols on > >> > top of it. > >> > >> For securely communicating with a container, "it sucks less" is hard > >> to use as a design criterion. > > > > Sucking less is a requirement when it comes to being able to use it. At > > the very least, when it comes to security, the fact that the protocol > > can be captured and analysed in wireshark is already of great help to > > inspect what each component of the system is doing. More so than passing > > fd's and using a custom protocol on the server and client sides. > > > >> What's wrong with fds, and how does kdbus solve it? > > > > By having a well-known protocol and defined semantics on top of that > > communication channel. I could try and re-explain why kdbus is needed, > > but I wouldn't do as good a job as the people working on it, so best to > > refer to the individual threads about kdbus on this list. > > > > I didn't do a good job asking the question, then. > > What's wrong with fds in the context of communicating with a > container? What does kdbus do container-wise that helps? Nothing's wrong with using fd's. They're just a very poor API. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/