Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:16:11 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:16:11 -0500 Received: from falcon.vispa.uk.net ([62.24.228.11]:59922 "EHLO falcon.vispa.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:16:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3E196749.8080509@walrond.org> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:23:53 +0000 From: Andrew Walrond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021020 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Helge Hafting CC: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? References: <1041596161.1157.34.camel@fly> <3E158738.4050003@walrond.org> <3E159336.F249C2A1@aitel.hist.no> <3E15A2C8.7060903@walrond.org> <3E195A4B.B160B1D2@aitel.hist.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 4897 Lines: 145 I am in almost complete agreement with you regarding the benefits of free drivers. But my point has evolved from this argument over nvidia and I extended the principles to my business to see where it would lead. I don't see rms saying "Non free software is bad, except games" Andrew Helge Hafting wrote: > Andrew Walrond wrote: > >>Helge Hafting wrote: >> >>>Andrew Walrond wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Am I a bad person charging for my work? >>> >>>No. >> >>Goodie! >> >> >>>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy >>>>people giving everything away for free! >>>> >>> >>>Nobody give everything away from free. Free software, in particular, >>>runs >>>on boxes that cost money. And people sell service and support. >>> >> >>But I don't sell service, or support. I sell *software* >>Am I bad again ? > > No - there's nothing wrong in selling software. I buy it if I want > it, or don't if I don't think it is worth the money. > > Of course the same apply to nvidia - I choose not to buy their hardware > _because_ of their secrecy. Many aren't that lucky, you can't usually > dictate the components of a work machine. > > >>>The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money. The problem >>>is that their product comes with strange restrictions. >>> >> >>Ah - I see >> >> >>>The problems are: >>>1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs. (Yes, >>> there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately. So >>> it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves. >>> Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't >>> making money on it. They might actually sell _more_ hardware >>> if they released the code. So keeping it secret don't make sense >>> even from a extreme greediness viewpoint. Such a driver can't >>> be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks. >>> >> >>Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are >>going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ? >> > > You can't compare your games to nvidia drivers. Your game might have > a problem, but that is a problem with the game only. Trouble > with video drivers means you can't use the computer properly > at all. > > Most people don't bother debugging a video game - if it is crap, they > don't play it. Because they don't need it. It is just a fun > thing _if_ it works. You need working video hardware though - under > all circumstances. > > >>>2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps >>> a patended algorithm or some such. They could at least release the >>> specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch. >>> But they don't do that either - strange. Some manufacturers _do_ >>> this, with no ill effects. They get a slightly bigger market because >>> their equipment is ok with the free software world. >>> >> >>Gosh, they are naughty aren't they. But I can't release the source >>either, because little jonnie and his mates will all copy it and I'll go >>bust and I'll lose my house and my wife will leave me. Oh what a dilema! >>Am I a bad man ? > > > I repeat - the two cases aren't comparable. People need fixable drivers > and > docs so their screen will work under all circumstances - including > future changes in the os. > > A game isn't like that at all. Nothing depends on it other than the game > itself. > Particularly, no expensive hardware depends on it. > > >>>This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and >>>you don't have the key. The gas stations have keys, but only >>>some of them. So you can't fill anywhere. >>>Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme, >>>annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer. >>> >>>Helge Hafting >>> >> >>Thanks for explaining that. >> >>I'm gonna hand myself in. I can hardly believe how bad I am. BAD Andrew. >>Bad bad bad! >> >>[Tongue so firmly in cheek that it hurts ;) Sorry Helge - I know you >>mean well!] > > > Try to understand this: the problems with nvidia does not apply to your > gaming business. Both of you sell some closed-source software, that > don't > make you equal at all though. In your case the software game is the > product. > In nvidia's case the software is merely something necessary to make the > hardware product work. > > Good open-source drivers is a huge win for us and a small win for > nvidia, > they have nothing to loose here. Your situation is different, open > source > might make the game impossible to sell, as you say. Most people > understand > and accept that. > > Helge Hafting > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/