Message-ID: <5544F4BA.5060603@ontolab.com>
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 18:00:58 +0200
From: Christian Stroetmann <stroetmann@ontolab.com>
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To: Daniel Phillips <daniel@phunq.net>
CC: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>,
        linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
        tux3@tux3.org, "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tux3 Report: How fast can we fsync?
References: <8f886f13-6550-4322-95be-93244ae61045@phunq.net> <20150430014616.GZ15810@dastard> <81488fcb-b5d5-4761-b8ae-936dce9c1f89@phunq.net> <20150501153855.GB15810@dastard> <55440A56.8000207@phunq.net> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505011742280.15076@nftneq.ynat.uz> <d52a170b-6c42-4294-8637-0a2bd91a29c0@phunq.net>
In-Reply-To: <d52a170b-6c42-4294-8637-0a2bd91a29c0@phunq.net>
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On the 2nd of May 2015 12:26, Daniel Phillips wrote:

Aloha everybody

> On Friday, May 1, 2015 6:07:48 PM PDT, David Lang wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 May 2015, Daniel Phillips wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 1, 2015 8:38:55 AM PDT, Dave Chinner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, yes - I never claimed XFS is a general purpose filesystem.  It
>>>> is a high performance filesystem. Is is also becoming more relevant
>>>> to general purpose systems as low cost storage gains capabilities
>>>> that used to be considered the domain of high performance storage...
>>>
>>> OK. Well, Tux3 is general purpose and that means we care about single
>>> spinning disk and small systems.
>>
>> keep in mind that if you optimize only for the small systems you may 
>> not scale as well to the larger ones.
>
> Tux3 is designed to scale, and it will when the time comes. I look 
> forward to putting Shardmap through its billion file test in due 
> course. However, right now it would be wise to stay focused on basic 
> functionality suited to a workstation because volunteer devs tend to 
> have those. After that, phones are a natural direction, where hard 
> core ACID commit and really smooth file ops are particularly attractive.
>

Has anybody else a deja vu?

Nevertheless, why don't you just put your fsync, your interpretations 
(ACID, shardmap, etc.) of my things (OntoFS, file system of SASOS4Fun, 
and OntoBase), and whatever gimmicks you have in mind together into a 
prototypical file system, test it, and sent a message with a short 
description focused solely on others' and your foundational ideas and 
the technical features, a WWW address where the code can be found, and 
your test results to this mailing list without your marketing and 
self-promotion BEFORE and NOT DUE COURSE respectively NOT AFTER anybody 
else does a similar work or I am so annoyed that I implement it?

Also, if it is so general that XFS and EXT4 should adapt it, then why 
don't you help to improve these file systems?

Btw.: I have rejected my claims I made in that email, but definitely not 
given up my copyright if it is valid.

>> per the ramdisk but, possibly not as relavent as you may think. This 
>> is why it's good to test on as many different systems as you can. As 
>> you run into different types of performance you can then pick ones to 
>> keep and test all the time.
>
> I keep being surprised how well it works for things we never tested 
> before.
>
>> Single spinning disk is interesting now, but will be less interesting 
>> later. multiple spinning disks in an array of some sort is going to 
>> remain very interesting for quite a while.
>
> The way to do md well is to integrate it into the block layer like 
> Freebsd does (GEOM) and expose a richer interface for the filesystem. 
> That is how I think Tux3 should work with big iron raid. I hope to be
> able to tackle that sometime before the stars start winking out.
>
>> now, some things take a lot more work to test than others. Getting 
>> time on a system with a high performance, high capacity RAID is hard, 
>> but getting hold of an SSD from Fry's is much easier. If it's a 
>> budget item, ping me directly and I can donate one for testing (the 
>> cost of a drive is within my unallocated budget and using that to 
>> improve Linux is worthwhile)
>
> Thanks.
>
>> As I'm reading Dave's comments, he isn't attacking you the way you 
>> seem to think he is. He is pointing ot that there are problems with 
>> your data, but he's also taking a lot of time to explain what's 
>> happening (and yes, some of this is probably because your simple 
>> tests with XFS made it look so bad)
>
> I hope the lightening up trend is a trend.
>
>> the other filesystems don't use naive algortihms, they use something 
>> more complex, and while your current numbers are interesting, they 
>> are only preliminary until you add something to handle fragmentation. 
>> That can cause very significant problems.
>
> Fsync is pretty much agnostic to fragmentation, so those results are 
> unlikely to change substantially even if we happen to do a lousy job 
> on allocation policy, which I naturally consider unlikely. In fact, 
> Tux3 fsync is going to get faster over time for a couple of reasons: 
> the minimum blocks per commit will be reduced, and we will get rid of 
> most of the seeks to beginning of volume that we currently suffer per 
> commit.
>
>> Remember how fabulous btrfs looked in the initial reports? and then 
>> corner cases were found that caused real problems and as the 
>> algorithms have been changed to prevent those corner cases from being 
>> so easy to hit, the common case has suffered somewhat. This isn't an 
>> attack on Tux2 or btrfs, it's just a reality of programming. If you 
>> are not accounting for all the corner cases, everything is easier, 
>> and faster.
>
>>> Mine is a lame i5 minitower with 4GB from Fry's. Yours is clearly way
>>> more substantial, so I can't compare my numbers directly to yours.
>>
>> If you are doing tests with a 4G ramdisk on a machine with only 4G of 
>> RAM, it seems like you end up testing a lot more than just the 
>> filesystem. Testing in such low memory situations can indentify 
>> significant issues, but it is questionable as a 'which filesystem is 
>> better' benchmark.
>
> A 1.3 GB tmpfs, and sorry, it is 10 GB (the machine next to it is 4G). 
> I am careful to ensure the test environment does not have spurious 
> memory or cpu hogs. I will not claim that this is the most sterile 
> test environment possible, but it is adequate for the task at hand. 
> Nearly always, when I find big variations in the test numbers it turns 
> out to be a quirk of one filesystem that is not exhibited by the 
> others. Everything gets multiple runs and lands in a spreadsheet. Any 
> fishy variance is investigated.
>
> By the way, the low variance kings by far are Ext4 and Tux3, and of 
> those two, guess which one is more consistent. XFS is usually steady, 
> but can get "emotional" with lots of tasks, and Btrfs has regular wild 
> mood swings whenever the stars change alignment. And while I'm making 
> gross generalizations: XFS and Btrfs go OOM way before Ext4 and Tux3.
>
>> Just a suggestion, but before you do a huge post about how great your 
>> filesystem is performing, making the code avaialble so that others 
>> can test it when prompted by your post is probably a very good idea. 
>> If it means that you have to send out your post a week later, it's a 
>> very small cost for the benefit of having other people able to easily 
>> try it on hardware that you don't have access to.
>
> Next time. This time I wanted it off my plate as soon as possible so I 
> could move on to enospc work. And this way is more involving, we get a 
> little suspense before the rematch.
>
>> If there is a reason to post wihtout the code being in the main, 
>> publicised repo, then your post should point people at what code they 
>> can use to duplicate it.
>
> I could have included the patch in the post, it is small enough. If it 
> still isn't in the repo in a few days then I will post it, to avoid 
> giving the impression I'm desperately trying to fix obscure bugs in 
> it, which isn't the case.
>
>> but really, 11 months without updating the main repo?? This is Open 
>> Source development, publish early and often.
>
> It's not as bad as that:
>
>   https://github.com/OGAWAHirofumi/linux-tux3/commits/hirofumi
>   https://github.com/OGAWAHirofumi/linux-tux3/commits/hirofumi-user
>
>> something to investigate, but I have seen probelms on ext* in the 
>> past. ext4 may have fixed this, or it may just have moved the point 
>> where it triggers.
>
> My spectrum of tests is small and I am not hunting for anomalies, only 
> reporting what happened to come up. It is not very surprising that some
> odd things happen with 10,000 tasks, there is probably not much test 
> coverage there. On the whole I was surprised and impressed when all 
> filesystems mostly just worked. I was expecting to hit scheduler 
> issues for one thing, and nothing obvious came up. Also, not one oops 
> on any filesystem (even Tux3) and only one assert, already reported 
> upstream and turned out to be fixed a week or two ago.
>
>>>> ...
>>> Your machine makes mine look like a PCjr. ...
>>
>> The interesting thing here is that on the faster machine btrfs didn't 
>> speed up significantly while ext4 and xfs did. It will be interesting 
>> to see what the results are for tux3
>
> The numbers are well into the something-is-really-wrong zone (and I 
> should have flagged that earlier but it was a long day). That test is 
> supposed to be -s, all synchronous, and his numbers are more typical of
> async. Needs double checking all round, including here. Anybody can 
> replicate that test, it is only an apt-get install dbench away (hint 
> hint).
>
> Differences: my numbers are kvm with loopback mount on tmpfs. His are 
> on ramdisk and probably native. I have to reboot to make a ramdisk big 
> enough to run dbench and I would rather not right now.
>
> How important is it to get to the bottom of the variance in test 
> results running on RAM? Probably important in the long run, because 
> storage devices are looking more like RAM all the time, but as of 
> today, maybe not very urgent.
>
> Also, I was half expecting somebody to question the wisdom of running 
> benchmarks under KVM instead of native, but nobody did. Just for the 
> record, I would respond: running virtual probably accounts for the
> majority of server instances today.
>
>> and both of you need to remember that while servers are getting 
>> faster, we are also seeing much lower power, weaker servers showing 
>> up as well. And while these smaller servers are not trying to do teh 
>> 10000 thread fsync workload, they are using flash based storage more 
>> frequently than they are spinning rust (frequently through the 
>> bottleneck of a SD card) so continuing tests on low end devices is good.
>
> Low end servers and embedded concerns me more, indeed.
>> what drives are available now? see if you can get a couple (either 
>> directly or donated)
>
> Right, time to hammer on flash.
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
> -- 

Thanks
Best Regards
Have fun
C.S.
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