Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1753851AbbEHPUC (ORCPT ); Fri, 8 May 2015 11:20:02 -0400 Received: from cobra.newdream.net ([66.33.216.30]:38441 "EHLO cobra.newdream.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753114AbbEHPT7 (ORCPT ); Fri, 8 May 2015 11:19:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Sage Weil To: Trond Myklebust cc: Zach Brown , Dave Chinner , Alexander Viro , Linux FS-devel Mailing List , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Linux API Mailing List Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC] vfs: add a O_NOMTIME flag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1430949612-21356-1-git-send-email-zab@redhat.com> <20150507002617.GJ4327@dastard> <20150507172053.GA659@lenny.home.zabbo.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3281 Lines: 63 On Thu, 7 May 2015, Trond Myklebust wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Sage Weil wrote: > > On Thu, 7 May 2015, Zach Brown wrote: > >> On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 10:26:17AM +1000, Dave Chinner wrote: > >> > On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 03:00:12PM -0700, Zach Brown wrote: > >> > > The criteria for using O_NOMTIME is the same as for using O_NOATIME: > >> > > owning the file or having the CAP_FOWNER capability. If we're not > >> > > comfortable allowing owners to prevent mtime/ctime updates then we > >> > > should add a tunable to allow O_NOMTIME. Maybe a mount option? > >> > > >> > I dislike "turn off safety for performance" options because Joe > >> > SpeedRacer will always select performance over safety. > >> > >> Well, for ceph there's no safety concern. They never use cmtime in > >> these files. > >> > >> So are you suggesting not implementing this and making them rework their > >> IO paths to avoid the fs maintaining mtime so that we don't give Joe > >> Speedracer more rope? Or are we talking about adding some speed bumps > >> that ceph can flip on that might give Joe Speedracer pause? > > > > I think this is the fundamental question: who do we give the ammunition > > to, the user or app writer, or the sysadmin? > > > > One might argue that we gave the user a similar power with O_NOATIME (the > > power to break applications that assume atime is accurate). Here we give > > developers/users the power to not update mtime and suffer the consequences > > (like, obviously, breaking mtime-based backups). It should be pretty > > obvious to anyone using the flag what the consequences are. > > > > Note that we can suffer similar lapses in mtime with fdatasync followed by > > a system crash. And as Andy points out it's semi-broken for writable > > mmap. The crash case is obviously a slightly different thing, but the > > idea that mtime can't always be trusted certainly isn't crazy talk. > > > > Or, we can be conservative and require a mount option so that the admin > > has to explicitly allow behavior that might break some existing > > assumptions about mtime/ctime ('-o user_noatime' I guess?). > > > > I'm happy either way, so long as in the end an unprivileged ceph daemon > > avoids the useless work. In our case we always own the entire mount/disk, > > so a mount option is just fine. > > > > So, what is the expectation here for filesystems that cannot support > this flag? NFSv3 in particular would break pretty catastrophically if > someone decided on a whim to turn off mtime: they will have turned off > the client's ability to detect cache incoherencies. Is this based on mtime or ctime? If the former, would things could also break if a user does, say, some stat(2), write(2), utimes(2) shenanigans? So, my assumption is that if the mount option isn't there allowing this then O_NOMTIME would be a no-op (as opposed to EPERM or something)... but maybe that's not the right thing to do. Whatever we do there, though, I suppose NFS would do the same thing? sage -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/