From: Marcus Metzler <mocm@metzlerbros.de>
Message-ID: <16122.5726.626761.307704@sheridan.metzler>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:38:38 +0200 (CEST)
To: Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>
Cc: mocm@mocm.de, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rn?= Engel <joern@wohnheim.fh-wedel.de>,
       Marcus Metzler <mocm@metzlerbros.de>,
       Michael Hunold <hunold@convergence.de>, Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org>,
       linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: DVB Include files
In-Reply-To: <20030625220358.B13814@infradead.org>
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	<16121.56382.444838.485646@sheridan.metzler>
	<20030625185036.C29537@infradead.org>
	<16121.58735.59911.813354@sheridan.metzler>
	<20030625191532.A1083@infradead.org>
	<16121.60747.537424.961385@sheridan.metzler>
	<20030625194250.GF1770@wohnheim.fh-wedel.de>
	<16122.379.321217.737557@sheridan.metzler>
	<20030625202312.GG1770@wohnheim.fh-wedel.de>
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	<20030625220358.B13814@infradead.org>
Reply-To: mocm@mocm.de
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Christoph Hellwig writes:
 > >  > In that case yes, you are screwed.  Your ABI just changed incompatibly.
 > > 
 > > Not if you recompile.

>If you need to recompile your ABI changed.  And yes, then your absolutely
>screwed.

You may be, I am not.

 > > 
 > > Why (It's DVB by the way)? It's as close to the kernel as ls or cat
 > > and having two sets of the same includes is stupid. 

>No, it's not.  One if for the driver you compile and one for the application.

Yeah, yeah. I know, get off it. They are the same.

 > > What packages? You are always talking about packages. There are no packages.
 > > There are only the kernel and my app. Nothing else. No copying of headers.

>Then you need to add a package with the userland header (which, as I already
>said might be exactly the same ones as those in the kernel tree).

What are those packages you are talking about? I am not making a
distribution.

 > > There is no one who does that, not even distributions. The includes
 > > needed for libc are far less prone to change than v4l or dvb. And not
 > > as linux specific.

> Oh yes, everyone does.  Ever looked at an errata kernel from RH, SuSE
> or Debian?  Yes, they never change what's /usr/include/.

So where are all the libc packages for each and every kernel package
in debian?

 > > I see your point, but right now it's only academic and not practicable.

>It's how Linux works.  If you don't like that play with SCO Unix or MacOS.

No, it's how a linux distribution may work ( or should I say a
GNU/Linux distribution).

> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 10:48:36PM +0200, Marcus Metzler wrote:
 > > That was kind of the point. If I have to check and copy the includes
 > > all the time I may run into trouble because of such changes. Whereas
 > > without that, I only have to recompile. I don't have to check each and
 > > evry possible place where old headers may be, which may even be
 > > different for every distribution.
 > 
 > If that's your attitude we should drop dvb from the kernel again.  The Linux
 > Kernel has a stable userspace ABI.
 > 

Yes, that's why it's called the unstable branch. You are talking about a ready
all done distribution. I am not. I am talking about developement. I
don't know what your problem is. If you want the app in your
distribution then change it to the way you want.

Fact is that you need the headers in the kernel, in order to compile
the drivers.

Fact is that I need those same headers for my applications, not some
others somewhere else.

Fact is that this is the kernel list and we are talking about a
developement kernel.

All you are talking about is some user who gets a distribution and
wants to compile his own programs. But they don't use DEVELOPEMENT
kernels. And the don't write low level apps to test the drivers.

Get over it, I am done feeding the trolls.

Marcus

-- 
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Dr. Marcus O.C. Metzler        |                                   |
|--------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
| mocm@metzlerbros.de            | http://www.metzlerbros.de/        |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------/


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