From: "Robert White" <rwhite@casabyte.com>
To: "David Lang" <david.lang@digitalinsight.com>
Cc: "Stephan von Krawczynski" <skraw@ithnet.com>,
       "Larry McVoy" <lm@bitmover.com>, <wa@almesberger.net>,
       <miquels@cistron-office.nl>, <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [OT] Re: Troll Tech [was Re: Sco vs. IBM]
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:02:26 -0700
Message-ID: <PEEPIDHAKMCGHDBJLHKGAEGGDBAA.rwhite@casabyte.com>
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David,

Yes, fine, that is in fact why I did give Larry a brief overview of my
experience, as the consideration of experience is valid, and I have TWENTY
YEARS of experience in software design, development, and yes, sales.

Yet because I have never tried to "run" the businesses I have participated
in somehow that experience doesn't count in Larry's explicitly stated world
view.

Larry wasn't discounting "some of the posts" he was specifically discounting
my *particular* posts because I have never "run a business".  See how that
makes your stance come down on my side of the net?

The saddest part is that, in simple fact, the thread is about the sources
and natures of *INNOVATION* which is *EXACTLY* my area of expertise and that
leaves his "you don't know business" (even though I have been in almost
every version of the software business over the last twenty years) defense a
classic example of cupidity and faulty reasoning employed to undermine, I
mean "reinforce", a position.

Rob.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Lang [mailto:david.lang@digitalinsight.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:50 PM
To: Robert White
Cc: Stephan von Krawczynski; Larry McVoy; wa@almesberger.net;
miquels@cistron-office.nl; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: [OT] Re: Troll Tech [was Re: Sco vs. IBM]


Robert the key isn't ability it's experiance, the golfer asks his caddy
questions becouse the caddy has more experiance with the course, the
players loearn from the coach becouse the coach has more experiance then
the players.

Larry is saying that the key reason he is discounting some of the posts is
the lack of experiance of the people involved, they have nice sounding
theories, but they have not put the theories into practice so they can't
backup their theories with experiance.

David Lang

 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Robert White wrote:

> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:41:49 -0700
> From: Robert White <rwhite@casabyte.com>
> To: Stephan von Krawczynski <skraw@ithnet.com>, Larry McVoy
<lm@bitmover.com>
> Cc: lm@bitmover.com, wa@almesberger.net, miquels@cistron-office.nl,
>      linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: RE: [OT] Re: Troll Tech [was Re: Sco vs. IBM]
>
> Actually the below analogy is so pathologically flawed it is laughable.  I
> was just going to let it slip buy because I, wrongly it seems, thought
that
> its flaws were too egregious and fallacious to be worth responding to.
>
> The idea that you "don't learn anything from (playing a less skilled
> opponent)" and by extension you also can not learn anything from a
> non-player is so flawed as to be laughable.
>
> The natural follow on both in the sports arena and in the business arena
are
> as follows:
>
> 1) The only way you can learn in business is to have your ass handed to
you
> by a better businessman.
>
> 2) There is nothing to be learned from your own mistakes.
> or
> 2a) Any mistakes you make playing an equal or lesser opponent don't count
> because you would not have made them "if it mattered".
>
> 3) There is nothing to be learned from practice.
>
> 4) There is no value to having a coach unless that coach can out perform
> every member of his team (or at least used to be able, in his heyday).
>
> 5) Third party analysis has no instructive value.
>
> 6) No person can gain knowledge or insight about a sport/task unless they
> have taken up that task first-person to a level in excess of their
> non-tasking knowledge of the task...  8-)
>
> Is this actually your stance?  Stephan?  Larry?
>
> Sticking to "competitive sports", lets see the most obvious examples that
> directly illuminate this position as "double plus un-smart."
>
> Golfers (professional and armature alike) ask their caddies for advice.
> Why?  Are the caddies the better Golfers?  No, or at least not usually,
but
> they live with their courses day in and day out and they have the chance
to
> observe a wide range of skills and approaches.  They can do this and
proffer
> up a distillation of their knowledge precisely because they are not mired
in
> playing the game.
>
> Every professional team, and most armature teams, of the common organized
> sports (Baseball, Football, Soccer, Rugby (sp?), Lacrosse (again sp?),
etc,
> od nausium) have coaches, special teams coaches, base coaches, etc.  If
> there was nothing to be learned from a non-player, they'd just have their
> team captain and they'd just go out and have at it.
>
> ...and at this point my brain locks up in apoplexy at picking any one of
the
> many such examples that are clamoring to be number three...
>
> Everybody who thinks that there is nothing to be learned from anybody
except
> the "better player" who you can only observe as they are beating you, and
> thinks that is a directly useful analogy to apply to business, please tell
> me your stock-ticker symbols so I can rush right out today and *not*
invest
> in your companies.
>
>
> Rob.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephan von Krawczynski [mailto:skraw@ithnet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:51 AM
> To: Larry McVoy
> Cc: rwhite@casabyte.com; lm@bitmover.com; wa@almesberger.net;
> miquels@cistron-office.nl; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Troll Tech [was Re: Sco vs. IBM]
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:09:44 -0700
> Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 01:35:09PM -0700, Robert White wrote:
> > > That is very sad.  The fact that I know that I am not the kind of
> salesman
> > > one needs to be to run a business does not magically disqualify me
from
> all
> > > business knowledge.
> >
> > I'm a pool player, or used to be.  In pool, as with many competitive
> sports,
> > you get better by playing against people who are better than you.  You
> learn
> > from their actions, etc.  It's perhaps more short term fun to play
someone
> > less skilled but you don't learn anything doing so.
>
> You may expand this point of view to almost any type of sports and even
way
> beyond that.
>
> > I've also started and grown a business and that has taught me an
enormous
> > amount that I do not believe you understand.  Why?  Because I used to
> think
> > just like you and running the business changed my mind.  What are the
> > chances that running a business would change yours?  In my opinion, very
> > close to 100%.
>
> It is very likely almost everbody who runs a business will agree with you
in
>
> that point - me, too :-)
> Indeed business has become even more unbelievable, irritating and absurd
> since
> the internet hype and the dotcom bubble started...
>
> Regards,
> Stephan
>
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