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[209.132.180.67]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id t7-v6si17266435ply.150.2018.10.08.06.55.54; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 06:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 209.132.180.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.132.180.67; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 209.132.180.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726458AbeJHVGV (ORCPT + 99 others); Mon, 8 Oct 2018 17:06:21 -0400 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.131]:54365 "EHLO mout.kundenserver.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726056AbeJHVGV (ORCPT ); Mon, 8 Oct 2018 17:06:21 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.110] ([77.4.53.57]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0Fl9-1fnslY0C6p-00xO45; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 15:54:27 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.110] ([77.4.53.57]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0Fl9-1fnslY0C6p-00xO45; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 15:54:27 +0200 Subject: Re: Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note To: Pavel Snajdr , michaeljpwoods@gmail.com Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <93424bb0-180e-71ff-f0d6-602caa2d5883@gmail.com> <260205ec45d097fb037f71ae42e7b69e@snajpa.net> From: "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" Organization: metux IT consult Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 15:54:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <260205ec45d097fb037f71ae42e7b69e@snajpa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NaKyiJRmCAtTG2GoMpHPSyIRpFmuokCxAnBY+b1hUt4wQZawva+ o3YSwnL9zDMjfD0zIMQHrYXpBEBjhlPew3T+xgMQC7oQVvpIeqt63GlIlIQwEu1S4kKpWLM h357r3DpRTiiRUo9JjJpSCstb9a6/bEh6/JmFnw4L8FEAd5Riceg1R3jVyaMsMf4B83zQqK FYJ0Rmpo4QllT33k9lmeQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:tUQBIM/66gI=:AyPhQv1K1L00Wbf2KjHkQd 4jnAp1psGzPb1TfBNZ4MoLDlAfuHFKdipMSf4s8/Zf6VFa2TjekyotWCaGI70LBmT84LN9A6h z5YZPvjtAvjYYgrSb70UPiAtgRcJ2GchoKi2qNnqq7lHMwwOUW9GQn0GNuyP1V6vbitK02aUv w9QjwI7tskE6B4Jm4eQGTFRZd93m/PAZo4QLXC5pXFvrVbA1I/UiTe2Mj1b8YF9iCczPjQW7u /pcp6qxKwHMW/YrAKf1cbbOESDhft5xywl+mqIN6R/+nQS0a5lqlg7LEBsRf519rV2G0UlRLI 6mZfj21gzGwgYJdNfptvHu7PUc2f2oWBHJxezWQSv55Ml062LoOHI5vwhNw9Bf5jXsUQetI+l PhG2fDpj4SKWw+Ytmoo949XIp/O4NQcXPI7XFtudODf7RYOxLaAsd0jeOMcRQXECbdXOCvmsZ Xw5jmdYCG7ptg5OYL67u9VBfwXa+44r/B2lvAcHseZIH0+EO2/Jco9yvFcSJPpPnCiK7WLWUI oV/VImenEtXN95IZZq/fASmzzXF++KsDM8XtiqybFWY8VqPo33+4L0tPlS1TLf3Py4QPy7Qk6 Rn5bsVaM/7c+Rh68nbdhxnYKYmIBNeWtkmpohfiwNc8NoeqfplZ+Js3pYL4XCk0FJZRlMJmSi oRoSNAlert7KdzeQGio8eXSt7GhPcwETaIrPfl4BPJP04QLlj/odmxjljf4LwbafDcE/2vxSZ DtlNm9ZTX3AjHGdJ Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 18.09.2018 03:30, Pavel Snajdr wrote: Hi folks, I usually try to stay out of political issues in software projects (there're already too much real political problems, where people need to stand up and push away actual oppressors), but now I have the bad feeling that political (or more precisely: social engineering) techniques are abused against the Linux kernel project. > and how about if we viewed the new Code of Conduct as about the same> thing as BitKeeper was for the development process? Bitkeeper was used as an intermediate workaround for conceptional deficiencies in CVS (and all other tools based on the same principles). But I really don't see any conceptional deficiencies in the way the Linux kernel community worked in the last decades. Actually, it worked very, very well. It created the best general purpose OS kernel in known history, that scales from small embedded to big clusters. And this has *VERY MUCH* to do with how the community worked for the last decades. IMHO, it's even the primary reason. Not having to care about personal behaviours, corporate hierarchies, marketing, whatsnot, only care about technical excellence. Nothing more, nothing less. > It was not perfect, but wass *something* for a start. A start for what exactly ? Just for the sake of doing *something* ? Well, that sounds like the typical corporate manager's / politician's behaviour pattern: There seems to be a problem, we need to do something fast - doing nothing is worse than not doing anything quick enough. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm regularily observing with my clients (the bigger the corporation, the worse). And that's exactly why so many of their projects fail so miserably, and products are such a crap. I really hate the idea of the Linux community falling into the same trap. (many of the GUI projects already did, and their code is crap) The best thing, IMHO, is to totally ignore any kind 'social rules' and focus on the actual technical goals. And don't take anything here personally. *If* there really happen some ugly personal attacks, we can talk about that on a case by case basis. > I've been always looking up to the guys leading major community projects> and how they go about things - and I think, that most of the bad> fall-out in them is caused by insanely high expectations - firstly from> the leader themselves, and secondly from others as well. Can you give some example of such bad fall-out ? > P.S.: this is my first "contribution" to LKML, I hope to start sending> up some of my very prototype work soon for discussion, regarding the> Cgroup subsystem ID allocation & limits - and subsequently, start a> discussion about getting Linux to do better OS-level containers (ie.> those, which have a "look&feel of a real VM" from the admin's perspective). Please add me to CC. I'm working on similar areas (if my time budget allows ;-)). Even better: create a separate maillist for that, if there's not already some fitting one. LKML's a pretty crowded already. > We started our organization (vpsFree.org) on top of OpenVZ patch set and> are now working to get vanilla up to the task of replacing the venerable> 2.6.32-based OpenVZ 6 Linux-like thing. What exactly are you yet missing in current mainline ? Are these things that really need to be done in the kernel or could it be done in userland ? My personal area of interest in the container context isn't the usual 'put a whole system in a box'-thing, but instead using namespace isolation an general software architectual feature, similar to the Plan9 world - eg. allow unprivileged processes to manipulate their own fs namespace at will, use synthetic filesystems as generic IPC, split huge applications into small and resusable programs, etc. > The new Code of Conduct is a guarantee for us, that we won't be laughed out > of the room  and that our members won't be demotivated to contribute upstream Seriously ? You really need some kind of 'social law' that protects you from the risk of being laughed out ? No offense, but if that's really the case, then you've got a much bigger, more serious problem, which also persuades you in your daily life: deep lack of self confidence. I feel very sorry for that, and I'm offering my help. For anybody who feels that way. Yes, I had exactly that problem for my whole childhood and youth, until I've learned a vital lesson: It just *DOES NOT* matter whether some people laugh about you or your work - as long as you're sure that you your work is the right thing for *YOU*. Simply ignore the trolls. (BTW, the really good point on FOSS is: you can fork anytime and do whatever changes you feel right for you - no matter what anybody out there thinks about them). So, don't let such things come into your way. Just do whatever you feel the right thing to do and then let's talk about that. I have no idea whether your patches have a chance to mainline anytime soon. But that shouldn't even matter. Solving a specific problem and fitting in something into the big generic world are two entirely different things. Many great things (eg. various container subsystems, realtime, android stuff, ...) went a long way towards mainline, some still have a long way to go. That's just because it's these topics are far from being trivial. And that shouldn't stop anybody. > If I understand the context correctly, the previous "regime" could be > the culprit, at least to some extent, why still don't have the VM > look&feel-having containers with vanilla. Why exactly do you think so ? What exactly are you missing here ? Where's the connection to social rules ? --mtx -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult Free software and Linux embedded engineering info@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287