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Ts'o" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, t@thunk.org, NeilBrown , Al Viro , Josh Triplett , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Linus Torvalds , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Mishi Choudhary References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com> <87r2gh70ij.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <20181023081144.GN1617@thunk.org> <1917804.q5V88l7eEq@siriux> <20181023154341.GF6850@thunk.org> From: Rainer Fiebig Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jrf@mailbox.org; keydata= xsFNBFohwNMBEADSyoSeizfx3D4yl2vTXfNamkLDCuXDN+7P5/UbB+Kj/d4RTbA/w0fqu3S3 Kdc/mff99ypi59ryf8VAwd3XM19beUrDZVTU1/3VHn/gVYaI0/k7cnPpEaOgYseemBX5P2OV ZE/MjfQrdxs80ThMqFs2dV1eHnDyNiI3FRV8zZ5xPeOkwvXakAOcWQA7Jkxmdc3Zmc1s1q8p ZWz77UQ5RRMUFw7Z9l0W1UPhOwr/sBPMuKQvGdW+eui3xOpMKDYYgs7uN4Ftg4vsiMEo03i5 qrK0mfueA73NADuVIf9cB2STDywF/tF1I27r+fWns1x9j/hKEPOAf4ACrNUdwQ9qzu7Nj9rz 2WU8sjneqiiED2nKdzV0gDnFkvXY9HCFZR2YUC2BZNvLiUJ1PROFDdNxmdbLZAKok17mPyOR MU0VQ61+PNjS8nsnAml8jnpzpcvLcQxR7ejRAV6w+Dc7JwnuQOiPS6M7x5FTk3QTPL+rvLFJ 09Nb3ooeIQ/OUQoeM7pW8ll8Tmu2qSAJJ+3O002ADRVU1Nrc9tM5Ry9ht5zjmsSnFcSe2GoJ Knu1hyXHDAvcq/IffOwzdeVstdhotBpf058jlhFlfnaqXcOaaHZrlHtrKOfQQZrxXMfcrvyv iE2yhO8lUpoDOVuC1EhSidLd/IkCyfPjfIEBjQsQts7lepDgpQARAQABzSRSYWluZXIgRmll YmlnIDxqcmZpZWJpZ0BtYWlsYm94Lm9yZz7CwYIEEwECACwCGyMFCQlmAYAHCwkIBwMCAQYV CAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWiLFEwIZAQAKCRDw4fcmJYr49Qq0D/4nkFpowFQphNzQfzH8 OR4Zh2ZLADZj3vuW/d4zEM9+K258WaHl9orLElwPjNOfyNwUtzJw31v/aMGEQ70lnKyD/VZz mTSamvk4br7ccLjnMV61edoj/hGpAYzBgiS7ibNPB62qsrjkKuXb1iPzg1GCJR34k264KHN7 jjz0Le1G0WYIndNfNV5/cm4+8LhEV+YE57fMJQCwG3WfOCthPoe03IUxWc/v9C3PaLRentE2 D0IFHqkBXYo3HwxZ7a95HFkeB7QUqHchEtOJ9M14841vLxz85z1t7AmkpaRfsHxigfQegAAf U4bLQzdsBSLAMHq7+EESHSE6XGpr4U2lk+MXEpN6jInwc38h22dJWt2Ycmv5ynjS3+sCVzXn ZukU8N5FUXgnidJnYcl3aeS1p7a3cho4PVJMGFF/ZUcbk0rsE6LrbKsiB8t7VziWCWMSpgyb DOA+Rk0Z3YIciKWme0xho2FhbPDeZU0+Ht9VXitb6ZVHLPO4JkQimOrCWlAwxgtQUsbSX0GE YCmYXWYw6r3J7rHoBK3LGh8lQu6nwQ1DYNnMxP0Gqj4lME6e2Uz1mGHrc7fz4HAzl98k6Hek 6IxVI5zK2+ez/xHyxSqkGWt6dq/zuCkwiScjjKUw86PGWwmerSCdsCXcLLK8zwCucoyNY9NV 2bMXkkcTXsUrmgnlus7BTQRaIcDTARAAwhbtQAUmZG/rkpR/6/xr7jRqi5Z3M5LZNw4lW9k4 nBpQDAP/rLVuREnz/upm314P9i5iN9g2wsbReZBJ9KiUxT39KD5p99KZGIH0elgZy+nDnb3o QLbtAr8+ox1ThOyOEJ7iX378txc1JD9IWJuv6YLMlkXa4ZuuAMCqKUvCChEjcHhZ+Ecb8OX8 GwIKUoklWhoHR7OcMqAkjdhA698FkWNkgIeqMiTN/hBJ9u010ZeB82ibDAKSMetMRxflCwTh rVrfrOr5+ZkJvoN5r+Jy1ulk8OOnDOjvqXoUcee5zdloZymeY3f7zebddvPmuiR0qXX0KYeS bhNF1GugLgbYeU2ev0nZ74F6vTwLUraRjKUzk0bq6SELlNMriS2xWj7zDB2XtzUdTHPYSgFD KGYxRqiM7KJbheCL7gD1wxUGRf14yJISXmDX/fZhsFrZ/NF3UqxJnLCz9lqyMCvT8prJjlAQ u0zcFcrGAYVBNeJMAKlukMllRMgWdSLmJQiDC5JMaXoEeXdGpIv8LgH+yU3tkKjXvkjwGywc XuL28ZScap3iJj08B8HWHmlL5b3pCkZv1w87SSF+FarrWl4F4u4Uj+u2r7/NEZVmJ0GpNHNw kYFQiX1Coky6+Ga1/gXUBP6grI9eZOMD+qtsJC1JVPY8VIsjq/47R1tBTKoiANQ/M+MAEQEA AcLBZQQYAQIADwUCWiHA0wIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRDw4fcmJYr49T45EADMYWeyxZQi7bG3Iv1N 485kMVhs/90ojJAEoBOldihdEvZatH21JVLmMbb0toAYXz8NZ9Npmzk7isrhigjy58Xob4cd I4SPg6WMVSuGBhpVSrProQcW3BdsaBqyHBJXMpDKZlmoZug2ia7cP2kk5H4D1Trcu//x+78Q Xh14g+hValrgphRSxuygdbDlhqBe3rqh5IK0UUh9pBeLjUvh8a3mqnjZI+xJWSlYVZ3qDnlW uKGc/1uotXYUKVDtBgTTt8AerGX+1PIaosOUr1fSE6158XP353EyABDglrkZsJL4PF3kE73c 8e+z4+lY1VVF4VKaoC6KU9mJEhcJSsz5OOHpBgz4TR6XjumL5+f7+7hEaI6sIvjSNDp97ZMJ NPf5iznOn8FFA0EeENttOnibbw6WHMtIsHVN8axqLgBIT04bidgpj57FinbcnJewqYiOQtHu 1/edHTQsfHXx2HcxLiyuDxXX1yJ+Tv2ZeQPSliH68KUYP2y/8tNS4MeF8/QLmMAZ9Cux37ZF EmdsS4XF92CpI09dB3NOQiXBv3qUBTHHDYH04esCC+kJoZck7O1LP2EMMzQyVUPBW91Y8W/0 bMeoZrfbN7hsvrnH60PqXlTvpZPnlK6VnH/bl0rf2cOSmOeJUfreToMYwWCtEhKq7YYxJQ8M 6/dT7HxuwnVIkER8kg== Message-ID: <0ece1f04-0f09-c9a5-d67e-2201406e86c2@mailbox.org> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:51:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181023154341.GF6850@thunk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Theodore Y. Ts'o schrieb: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:22:54PM +0200, Rainer Fiebig wrote: >> >> And whether that CoC does come with a political agenda or is just being >> *perceived* so, is irrelevant: the perception *is* the reality. And by >> embracing this CoC, Linux is now being perceived as also supporting the agenda >> that comes with it. But perhaps that was intended? >> >> In my view you now have a new, probably even bigger problem: namely that by >> adopting *this* CoC and by unyieldingly clinging to it, you have alienated >> many, if not the majority of loyal Linux-users/supporters. > > Citation Needed: What's your *proof* the majority of Linux > users/supports have been alienated? Many people have actually been > quite supportive of the CoC. > Ah, come on. Proof? Do you have any hard data to underpin your assertion of "many"? That it *may* be the majority is the impression I got from the many discussions that I have seen, I haven't counted the pro- and con-comments. But I've found a little poll at "Pro-Linux", small sample, no way representative but accessible only for registered users.[1] The question was: "The new Code of Conduct: Good or bad for Linux?" - Brings Linux sympathies and support: 11% - Costs linux sympathies and support: 57% - Will have no impact: 32% - Nothing of this, but: 0% I wouldn't call this "proof" but a worrisome indication nevertheless, especially if you consider the name of the site. > And perception is a funny thing. I have no doubt that there are > people who will claim that some CoC's that might more be acceptable to > you would be "useless" or "means nothing". (Note how simply removing > three lines that troubled ***many*** Maintainers caused Josh to > complain that it ruined the CoC). And there are others for whom the > Contributor's Convenant automatically seems to mean kangaroo courts > and harsh punishments with no accountability for minor issues. I > suspect that both you *and* Josh are unhappy, in opposite directions, > might be a hint that we've mostly gotten things right. > I find Josh's position rather extreme - for him it seems to be "All or nothing". On the other hand, I've already made a proposal that is not too far from what you have now - without the political sting. Doesn't mean you should use it. So personally, I would be content already if you modified the first sentence in the way that has been suggested by others here several times. Less would be more. > Another example of this is that zero-day testing bot changed its > message in order to be more welcoming to newcomers. ("Thank you for > the patch! Yet something to improve...".) At the Maintainer's Summit, > someone from Germany pointed out that in European and especially > German cultures, being ultra polite is often a signal that the person > is considered stupid/incompetent, and he actually viewed it the change > in the testing bot as making it be *less* welcoming, not *more*. Not > that he cared, because he has a thick skin and after all, it's only a > 'bot --- but in his view he thought it was quite funny that the change > was welcomed by some as being an improvement when he viewed it > completely the other way 'round. > Perhaps not *less* welcoming but yes, you might get the impression that this bot wants to take you on a ride. :) > Ultimately, we are a world-wide effort, and it's really hard to > predict or control how people from different cultures will perceive an > e-mail or some document. That doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*, and > there may very well be times when someone will file a complaint for > what is perceived to be a Code of Conduct which is really a > misunderstanding due to a cultural mismatch. (And *obviously* that's > not a CoC violation either, despite some people trying to spread FUD > by making the case that it would be.) > >> In my view, the Linux-CoC stands for exactly that sort of extreme "Political >> Correctness" that is infesting our societies and has proven its destructive >> nature in more than enough instances. For some examples see [1][2][3][4][5]. >> >> To me it feels more and more like the dark times of witch-hunts are back or >> when it was politically in-correct to say that the earth revolves around the >> sun. In those days offenders like Galilei were at least offered the choice >> between recanting and the funeral-pile. Today you may recant but you get >> publicly burnt anyway. > > Yeah, and that's precisely the FUD that I'm talking about. I > understand that is your view. Let's see if it's actually true. I FUD? What happened to those guys and other people is not fiction but reality. And if a Nobel-laureate can lose his job and even leaves his country because of a harmless joke which was quoted completely out of context, it's time to be concerned and alarmed. There's something getting out of hand, imo. I would have expected Linux to resist this and not invite it. > haven't seen any witch trials or burnings in the GoLang community, > which also uses the Contributor hConvenant as their CoC. Can you be > open-minded enough to accept the fact that you might be wrong? And > are you prepared to change your views if we don't see Maintainers > getting "impeached" or otherwise burned at the stake in the next year > or so? I think I am. But are you open-minded enough to entertain the idea that introducing *this* CoC *this* way might have been a ghastly mistake? > And on the flip side, if we continue to have newcomers saying that > they are feeling more welcomed, I'm hoping that Josh is also open > minded to understand that the changes the we made didn't completely > destroy the whole point of the CoC. > Not so long ago I was a newcomer myself. And submitting the patch, discussing and improving it was a constructive and motivating experience - *no* CoC needed. What happened in the last few weeks was just the opposite. We'll see how this pans out. Thanks and regards! Rainer Fiebig --- [1] https://www.pro-linux.de/umfragen/2/454/der-neue-code-of-conduct-gut-oder-schlecht-f%C3%BCr-linux.html