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Subject: Re: Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording,
 and add an interpretation document
To:     NeilBrown <neil@brown.name>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Cc:     Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
        ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
        Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>, Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>,
        Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>
References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com>
 <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <2341648.lzjnUGKk1z@siriux>
 <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name>
 <ffeb597c-9ca2-cf21-ba52-2146ab20c83a@mailbox.org>
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From:   Rainer Fiebig <jrf@mailbox.org>
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Message-ID: <ef5f0e6a-dc42-b203-995e-5b203ea71587@mailbox.org>
Date:   Sat, 27 Oct 2018 13:49:04 +0200
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From: Rainer Fiebig <jrf@mailbox.org>
To: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
 ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org,
 Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>, Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>,
 Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>
Message-ID: <ef5f0e6a-dc42-b203-995e-5b203ea71587@mailbox.org>
Subject: Re: Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording,
 and add an interpretation document
References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com>
 <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <2341648.lzjnUGKk1z@siriux>
 <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name>
 <ffeb597c-9ca2-cf21-ba52-2146ab20c83a@mailbox.org>
 <87o9bg49iq.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name>
In-Reply-To: <87o9bg49iq.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name>

--Mk0myVvM6hzoupVsATLwiqXAkD0odKHMl
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NeilBrown schrieb:
> On Fri, Oct 26 2018, Rainer Fiebig wrote:
>=20
>> NeilBrown schrieb:
>>> On Thu, Oct 25 2018, Rainer Fiebig wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am Montag, 22. Oktober 2018, 08:20:11 schrieb NeilBrown:
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 20 2018, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As everyone knows by now, we added a new Code of Conduct to the ke=
rnel
>>>>>> tree a few weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to stay detached from all this, but as remaining (publicly=
)
>>>>> silent might be seen (publicly) as acquiescing, I hereby declare th=
at:
>>>>>    I reject, as illegitimate, this Code and the process by
>>>>>    which it is being "developed".
>>>>>
>>>>> It is clear from the surrounding discussions that this is well outs=
ide our
>>>>> core competencies.  It will be flawed, it isn't what we need.
>>>>>
>>>>> I call on any other community members who reject this process to sa=
y so,
>>>>> not to remain silent.
>>>>> #Iobject
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't need a "Code of Conduct" nearly as much as we need "Leader=
ship
>>>>> in conduct".  Without the leadership, any code looks like a joke.
>>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> =20
>>>>> I call on you, Greg:
>>>>>  - to abandon this divisive attempt to impose a "Code of Conduct"
>>>>>  - to revert 8a104f8b5867c68
>>>>
>>>> Yes but this seems increasingly unlikely now. However, there may be =
an=20
>>>> alternative.
>>>>
>>>> Jugding by the release-message for 4.19, some people here are fans o=
f=20
>>>> Monty Python's. No wonder - as those guys are famous for being unrel=
enting=20
>>>> supporters of Political Correctness.
>>>>
>>>> So one would be on the safe side if one just supplemented "Our Pledg=
e"=20
>>>> with this:
>>>>
>>>> 	"Everybody has the right to be offended."
>>>>
>>>> I think, John Cleese would also welcome this.[1]
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> I do think that giving certain rights to the community is a good thin=
g:
>>> - the right to tell anyone that their speech is hurtful
>>> - the right to (patch) review by a third party.
>>>
>>> I don't think the right to be offended really needs to be given.
>>> Yes, I know it is a joke and I do like Monty Python.  I just don't th=
ink
>>> it is particular helpful in this context. Maybe I missed something.
>>
>> Of course it's a joke and iirc it was indeed John Cleese who made it. =
But he
>> made it for a reason, out of concern. It has a serious core.
>>
>> The question is: what *is* helpful in this matter?
>>
>> Just saying "this is not helpful" isn't helpful either. It's a well-kn=
own
>> killer-phrase that has been used ad nauseam in this discussion. But an=

>> alternative is never given. And thus it's just an other way of saying
>> "Eat it. And shut tf up!"
>=20
> You asked me what I thought, and I told you what I thought.
> If you think differently, you are quite welcome tell us - to explain th=
e
> way in which you think the addition would be helpful.
>=20

Neil, this is probably a misunderstanding. I really value your initiative=
 and
dedication in this matter.

My suggestion of adding the "right to be offended" was of course just a
sarcastic joke. I thought this was obvious, especially since I provided t=
he
link to the interview with John Cleese. But it wasn't obvious to you
and I'm sorry for that.

BTW - it just strikes me: perhaps this endless enumeration of
protected/privileged classes was also just a joke and *I* didn't see it? =
;)

OK. "Not helpful":
This is indeed a killer-phrase used to suppress critique and to silence
people. I just wanted to expose this.

It was not directed at *you*. That's why I began my critique with
>> "The question is: what *is* helpful in this matter?"

>>
>> Not even *constructive* criticism is helpful. AFAIK I'm the only one h=
ere who
>> came up with a *complete* alternative - ignored. Others provided patch=
es for
>> certain sections - ignored. Data that indicate that this may be detrim=
ental to
>> Linux - ignored. Almost anything that was provided by me or others - i=
gnored.
>=20
> From my perspective, providing a complete alternative is no better than=

> what Greg did - provided a "complete" "code of conduct".
>=20

I think in your message of 10/21/18 you asked for it:
"What is the document that you would have liked to have read as you were
starting out? [...]"

In my reply I also made it clear that my suggestion was just intended as =
an
example that *of course* would have to be discussed:
"On the day the patch came out, I started working on a modified version,
a CoC that I could have lived with. [...].

So please find below what I would have submitted for discussion."

And if that's not *constructive* criticism, I don't know what is.

> Engage in discussion, present your case, make me *want* to read your
> document because you've shown me how it relates to me.
>=20

I think, I engaged in this discussion earlier than you did. My first post=
 was
on 10/09/18.

And I have already presented my case several times, including examples fo=
r why
I'm opposed to this CoC, concrete proposals for modification and some dat=
a
that show that it may be detrimental to Linux. I also suggested to revert=
 the
patch, set up a task-force to come up with an alternate CoC, discuss it e=
tc.
And all of this early enough.

There's no point in repeating it. So - what else could I do?

And why should you *want* to read my document? I don't know. Perhaps beca=
use
you asked for it? Or to get some ideas how the same can be achieved witho=
ut a
political sting? Up to you.

But I will definitely no longer participate in this discussion unless the=
re
are clear indications by those who introduced this stuff that a discussio=
n
is appreciated and its outcome may lead to changes in the CoC.

Because else I know of better ways to waste my time. ;)


Kind regards - and have a good weekend!


Rainer Fiebig


>>
>> What kind of community or attitude is this? This feels more like "The =
Wall" or
>> North Korea than an Open-Source-project.
>>
>> And what beat everything was to misuse famously politically *in*correc=
t Monty
>> Python to malign criticism of this Political-Correctness-monster. The
>> "People's Front" - message will forever be a prominent exhibit in "Mon=
ty
>> Python's Hall of Shame". And the author should be banned from laughing=
 about
>> MP-sketches until he recants. Perhaps one should also report this inci=
dent to
>> the "Ministry of Silly CoCs". ;)
>>
>>> For myself, I relinquish my right to be offended.  I just don't do it=
=2E
>>> It doesn't seem to be worth the effort.
>>
>> I don't. John Cleese is a smart guy. And he has a point.
>>
>>
>> OK, thanks for your reply! But I think it's time for me to move on. "C=
ut your
>> losses", as they say.
>>
>=20
> Thanks for participating!
>=20
> NeilBrown
>=20
>>
>> Good luck and regards!
>>
>> Rainer Fiebig


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