Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 209.132.180.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.132.180.67;
Subject: Re: [RFC][Patch v8 0/7] KVM: Guest Free Page Hinting
To:     "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>
Cc:     Nitesh Narayan Lal <nitesh@redhat.com>, kvm@vger.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, pbonzini@redhat.com,
        lcapitulino@redhat.com, pagupta@redhat.com, wei.w.wang@intel.com,
        yang.zhang.wz@gmail.com, riel@surriel.com, dodgen@google.com,
        konrad.wilk@oracle.com, dhildenb@redhat.com, aarcange@redhat.com,
        Alexander Duyck <alexander.duyck@gmail.com>
References: <20190204201854.2328-1-nitesh@redhat.com>
 <af4430fd-0a2c-8f35-b767-3f93fc6db270@redhat.com>
 <20190218114601-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
 <44740a29-bb14-e6e6-2992-98d0ae58e994@redhat.com>
 <20190218122636-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
 <f396836d-9bbd-e3e2-c7b0-d921bf1c9ed1@redhat.com>
 <20190218140947-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
From:   David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
 xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ
 dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL
 QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp
 XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK
 Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9
 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt
 WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc
 UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv
 jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb
 B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk
 ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwX4EEwECACgFAljj9eoCGwMFCQlmAYAGCwkI
 BwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEE3eEPcA/4Na5IIP/3T/FIQMxIfNzZshIq687qgG
 8UbspuE/YSUDdv7r5szYTK6KPTlqN8NAcSfheywbuYD9A4ZeSBWD3/NAVUdrCaRP2IvFyELj
 xoMvfJccbq45BxzgEspg/bVahNbyuBpLBVjVWwRtFCUEXkyazksSv8pdTMAs9IucChvFmmq3
 jJ2vlaz9lYt/lxN246fIVceckPMiUveimngvXZw21VOAhfQ+/sofXF8JCFv2mFcBDoa7eYob
 s0FLpmqFaeNRHAlzMWgSsP80qx5nWWEvRLdKWi533N2vC/EyunN3HcBwVrXH4hxRBMco3jvM
 m8VKLKao9wKj82qSivUnkPIwsAGNPdFoPbgghCQiBjBe6A75Z2xHFrzo7t1jg7nQfIyNC7ez
 MZBJ59sqA9EDMEJPlLNIeJmqslXPjmMFnE7Mby/+335WJYDulsRybN+W5rLT5aMvhC6x6POK
 z55fMNKrMASCzBJum2Fwjf/VnuGRYkhKCqqZ8gJ3OvmR50tInDV2jZ1DQgc3i550T5JDpToh
 dPBxZocIhzg+MBSRDXcJmHOx/7nQm3iQ6iLuwmXsRC6f5FbFefk9EjuTKcLMvBsEx+2DEx0E
 UnmJ4hVg7u1PQ+2Oy+Lh/opK/BDiqlQ8Pz2jiXv5xkECvr/3Sv59hlOCZMOaiLTTjtOIU7Tq
 7ut6OL64oAq+zsFNBFXLn5EBEADn1959INH2cwYJv0tsxf5MUCghCj/CA/lc/LMthqQ773ga
 uB9mN+F1rE9cyyXb6jyOGn+GUjMbnq1o121Vm0+neKHUCBtHyseBfDXHA6m4B3mUTWo13nid
 0e4AM71r0DS8+KYh6zvweLX/LL5kQS9GQeT+QNroXcC1NzWbitts6TZ+IrPOwT1hfB4WNC+X
 2n4AzDqp3+ILiVST2DT4VBc11Gz6jijpC/KI5Al8ZDhRwG47LUiuQmt3yqrmN63V9wzaPhC+
 xbwIsNZlLUvuRnmBPkTJwwrFRZvwu5GPHNndBjVpAfaSTOfppyKBTccu2AXJXWAE1Xjh6GOC
 8mlFjZwLxWFqdPHR1n2aPVgoiTLk34LR/bXO+e0GpzFXT7enwyvFFFyAS0Nk1q/7EChPcbRb
 hJqEBpRNZemxmg55zC3GLvgLKd5A09MOM2BrMea+l0FUR+PuTenh2YmnmLRTro6eZ/qYwWkC
 u8FFIw4pT0OUDMyLgi+GI1aMpVogTZJ70FgV0pUAlpmrzk/bLbRkF3TwgucpyPtcpmQtTkWS
 gDS50QG9DR/1As3LLLcNkwJBZzBG6PWbvcOyrwMQUF1nl4SSPV0LLH63+BrrHasfJzxKXzqg
 rW28CTAE2x8qi7e/6M/+XXhrsMYG+uaViM7n2je3qKe7ofum3s4vq7oFCPsOgwARAQABwsFl
 BBgBAgAPBQJVy5+RAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEE3eEPcA/4NagOsP/jPoIBb/iXVbM+fmSHOjEshl
 KMwEl/m5iLj3iHnHPVLBUWrXPdS7iQijJA/VLxjnFknhaS60hkUNWexDMxVVP/6lbOrs4bDZ
 NEWDMktAeqJaFtxackPszlcpRVkAs6Msn9tu8hlvB517pyUgvuD7ZS9gGOMmYwFQDyytpepo
 YApVV00P0u3AaE0Cj/o71STqGJKZxcVhPaZ+LR+UCBZOyKfEyq+ZN311VpOJZ1IvTExf+S/5
 lqnciDtbO3I4Wq0ArLX1gs1q1XlXLaVaA3yVqeC8E7kOchDNinD3hJS4OX0e1gdsx/e6COvy
 qNg5aL5n0Kl4fcVqM0LdIhsubVs4eiNCa5XMSYpXmVi3HAuFyg9dN+x8thSwI836FoMASwOl
 C7tHsTjnSGufB+D7F7ZBT61BffNBBIm1KdMxcxqLUVXpBQHHlGkbwI+3Ye+nE6HmZH7IwLwV
 W+Ajl7oYF+jeKaH4DZFtgLYGLtZ1LDwKPjX7VAsa4Yx7S5+EBAaZGxK510MjIx6SGrZWBrrV
 TEvdV00F2MnQoeXKzD7O4WFbL55hhyGgfWTHwZ457iN9SgYi1JLPqWkZB0JRXIEtjd4JEQcx
 +8Umfre0Xt4713VxMygW0PnQt5aSQdMD58jHFxTk092mU+yIHj5LeYgvwSgZN4airXk5yRXl
 SE+xAvmumFBY
Organization: Red Hat GmbH
Message-ID: <4039c2e8-5db4-cddd-b997-2fdbcc6f529f@redhat.com>
Date:   Mon, 18 Feb 2019 20:35:36 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/60.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20190218140947-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
Precedence: bulk

On 18.02.19 20:16, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 07:29:44PM +0100, David Hildenbrand wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But really what business has something that is supposedly
>>>>> an optimization blocking a VCPU? We are just freeing up
>>>>> lots of memory why is it a good idea to slow that
>>>>> process down?
>>>>
>>>> I first want to know that it is a problem before we declare it a
>>>> problem. I provided an example (s390x) where it does not seem to be a
>>>> problem. One hypercall ~every 512 frees. As simple as it can get.
>>>>
>>>> No trying to deny that it could be a problem on x86, but then I assume
>>>> it is only a problem in specific setups.
>>>
>>> But which setups? How are we going to identify them?
>>
>> I guess is simple (I should be carefuly with this word ;) ): As long as
>> you don't isolate + pin your CPUs in the hypervisor, you can expect any
>> kind of sudden hickups. We're in a virtualized world. Real time is one
>> example.
>>
>> Using kernel threads like Nitesh does right now? It can be scheduled
>> anytime by the hypervisor on the exact same cpu. Unless you isolate +
>> pin in the hypervor. So the same problem applies.
> 
> Right but we know how to handle this. Many deployments already use tools
> to detect host threads kicking VCPUs out.
> Getting VCPU blocked by a kfree call would be something new.
> 

Yes, and for s390x we already have some kfree's taking longer than
others. We have to identify when it is not okay.

> 
>>> So I'm fine with a simple implementation but the interface needs to
>>> allow the hypervisor to process hints in parallel while guest is
>>> running.  We can then fix any issues on hypervisor without breaking
>>> guests.
>>
>> Yes, I am fine with defining an interface that theoretically let's us
>> change the implementation in the guest later.
>> I consider this even a
>> prerequisite. IMHO the interface shouldn't be different, it will be
>> exactly the same.
>>
>> It is just "who" calls the batch freeing and waits for it. And as I
>> outlined here, doing it without additional threads at least avoids us
>> for now having to think about dynamic data structures and that we can
>> sometimes not report "because the thread is still busy reporting or
>> wasn't scheduled yet".
> 
> Sorry I wasn't clear. I think we need ability to change the
> implementation in the *host* later. IOW don't rely on
> host being synchronous.
> 
> 
I actually misread it :) . In any way, there has to be a mechanism to
synchronize.

If we are going via a bare hypercall (like s390x, like what Alexander
proposes), it is going to be a synchronous interface either way. Just a
bare hypercall, there will not really be any blocking on the guest side.

Via virtio, I guess it is waiting for a response to a requests, right?

-- 

Thanks,

David / dhildenb