Message-ID: <40D345D5.9020006@techsource.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:43:17 -0400
From: Timothy Miller <miller@techsource.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: 4Front Technologies <dev@opensound.com>
CC: Andreas Gruenbacher <agruen@suse.de>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Stop the Linux kernel madness
References: <40D232AD.4020708@opensound.com> <3217460000.1087518092@flay>	 <40D23701.1030302@opensound.com> <1087573691.19400.116.camel@winden.suse.de> <40D32C1D.80309@opensound.com> <40D33464.6030403@techsource.com> <40D33338.6050001@opensound.com>
In-Reply-To: <40D33338.6050001@opensound.com>
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4Front Technologies wrote:
> Timothy Miller wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> 4Front Technologies wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the perfect explanation to our problems. The question then 
>>> arises as
>>> to why does SUSE do KBUILDS in this way and the vanilla kernels or 
>>> Redhat/Fedora/Mandrake/Debian
>>> kernels use another way?. What I'd like to see is at least some 
>>> standard.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like you're making a demand.  Who are you and why are we 
>> interested in your demands?
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Timothy,
> 
> Who are you to revoke my request to SuSE and other distributors and 
> others who share
> my views on LKML?

_I_ am not revoking anything.  I don't have the right to do that.  _I_ 
am simply asking a rhetorical question.

> 
> What is wrong with making a demand for standardization?. It's high time
> that things got a bit more organized. And where do you see a demand....I 
> just
> said "like to see". Which is more of a request the way I understand 
> English.

Tell you what.  You donate some money OSDL with some strings attached, 
and IF they agree to that, THEN you can make some demands.

I don't believe English is the issue here.  I believe your attitude, 
which is a demanding one, is apparent from everything you write.

My observation is that kernel developers HATE demands but LOVE to answer 
polite questions.  This is, in part, because NO ONE is in a position to 
DEMAND ANYTHING from kernel developers.  Many of them do it as a hobby 
on their own time for the fun of it.  Demands are un-fun.

> 
> It's high time people like me spoke up for standardization and some 
> sense of
> organization. 

People have been speaking up about that for a LONG time, and the 
question has been answered ad nauseaum.  Making suggestions for 
standardization, particularly specific well-thought-out suggestions is a 
welcome exercise.  DEMANDING it is not welcome.

I am not telling you how _I_ feel about this.  I'm telling you what my 
observations are about the people who would be the ones to do the work 
were you to convince them to do it.  Vinegar is not the way to get them 
to do what you want.

> If the majority doesn't want to listen fine, it's a free 
> world,
> but you have no right to silence me for airing my views.

I cannot and will not silence you.  To be honest, I find this whole 
discussion amusing because yet another whiner has some onto LKML trying 
to tell people how to think and what to do, and they're just going to 
get laughed at like everyone else who does it.

However, I am informing you that you might want to silence yourself 
and/or modify your approach, because your approach, so far, has only 
polarized people against you.  This is my observation.  You don't have 
to believe me.

Let me tell you how _I_ would get something I want from kernel 
developers.  There are various things I would try, and more than one of 
them maybe applicable:

1) Ask if the thing I want already exists and if I'm just too stupid to 
find it.
2) Beg and plead really hard for people to take the time to address my 
insignificant little needs.
3) Explain how my need is a wonderful idea and many people would benefit 
from it, pointing out that my idea may be stupid and short-sighted, but 
I won't know until I ask.
4) Start a discussion which gets people excited about the idea.
5) Describe my problem, describe my need, and ask for suggestions on how 
to meet my need through some entirely different means than how I THINK I 
should do it, because if something seems broken, it's probably because 
my thinking is broken.
6) Go without.
7) Pay money to OSDL so that I can be somewhat in a better position to 
"request" things.


A keyword to learn here is "humility".  I am nobody.  You are nobody. 
Even Linus isn't really in a position to DEMAND that anyone do anything. 
  Lots of people disagree with Linus and that is one of the reasons for 
distro vendors forking the kernel.  Linux is like a democracy or an 
anarchy where everyone gets to decide for themselves if they want to 
comply with anyone else's opinions.


Most people who make requests on LKML seem to implicitly understand 
this.  But you are not the only one who doesn't.  I can't force you to 
understand, but I can tell you that if you don't, people will be VERY 
unwilling to listen to you.


Oh, and BTW, while I don't use SuSE on the desktop personally, we use it 
plenty where I work.  We think it's GREAT.  We also think lots of other 
distros are great too.  But that's just our opinion.  :)

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