Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S266590AbUFRTaK (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:30:10 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S266771AbUFRT05 (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:26:57 -0400 Received: from kinesis.swishmail.com ([209.10.110.86]:37638 "EHLO kinesis.swishmail.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S266578AbUFRTZi (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:25:38 -0400 Message-ID: <40D345D5.9020006@techsource.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:43:17 -0400 From: Timothy Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 4Front Technologies CC: Andreas Gruenbacher , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Stop the Linux kernel madness References: <40D232AD.4020708@opensound.com> <3217460000.1087518092@flay> <40D23701.1030302@opensound.com> <1087573691.19400.116.camel@winden.suse.de> <40D32C1D.80309@opensound.com> <40D33464.6030403@techsource.com> <40D33338.6050001@opensound.com> In-Reply-To: <40D33338.6050001@opensound.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 4753 Lines: 126 4Front Technologies wrote: > Timothy Miller wrote: > >> >> >> 4Front Technologies wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the perfect explanation to our problems. The question then >>> arises as >>> to why does SUSE do KBUILDS in this way and the vanilla kernels or >>> Redhat/Fedora/Mandrake/Debian >>> kernels use another way?. What I'd like to see is at least some >>> standard. >> >> >> >> >> Sounds like you're making a demand. Who are you and why are we >> interested in your demands? >> >> >> > > Timothy, > > Who are you to revoke my request to SuSE and other distributors and > others who share > my views on LKML? _I_ am not revoking anything. I don't have the right to do that. _I_ am simply asking a rhetorical question. > > What is wrong with making a demand for standardization?. It's high time > that things got a bit more organized. And where do you see a demand....I > just > said "like to see". Which is more of a request the way I understand > English. Tell you what. You donate some money OSDL with some strings attached, and IF they agree to that, THEN you can make some demands. I don't believe English is the issue here. I believe your attitude, which is a demanding one, is apparent from everything you write. My observation is that kernel developers HATE demands but LOVE to answer polite questions. This is, in part, because NO ONE is in a position to DEMAND ANYTHING from kernel developers. Many of them do it as a hobby on their own time for the fun of it. Demands are un-fun. > > It's high time people like me spoke up for standardization and some > sense of > organization. People have been speaking up about that for a LONG time, and the question has been answered ad nauseaum. Making suggestions for standardization, particularly specific well-thought-out suggestions is a welcome exercise. DEMANDING it is not welcome. I am not telling you how _I_ feel about this. I'm telling you what my observations are about the people who would be the ones to do the work were you to convince them to do it. Vinegar is not the way to get them to do what you want. > If the majority doesn't want to listen fine, it's a free > world, > but you have no right to silence me for airing my views. I cannot and will not silence you. To be honest, I find this whole discussion amusing because yet another whiner has some onto LKML trying to tell people how to think and what to do, and they're just going to get laughed at like everyone else who does it. However, I am informing you that you might want to silence yourself and/or modify your approach, because your approach, so far, has only polarized people against you. This is my observation. You don't have to believe me. Let me tell you how _I_ would get something I want from kernel developers. There are various things I would try, and more than one of them maybe applicable: 1) Ask if the thing I want already exists and if I'm just too stupid to find it. 2) Beg and plead really hard for people to take the time to address my insignificant little needs. 3) Explain how my need is a wonderful idea and many people would benefit from it, pointing out that my idea may be stupid and short-sighted, but I won't know until I ask. 4) Start a discussion which gets people excited about the idea. 5) Describe my problem, describe my need, and ask for suggestions on how to meet my need through some entirely different means than how I THINK I should do it, because if something seems broken, it's probably because my thinking is broken. 6) Go without. 7) Pay money to OSDL so that I can be somewhat in a better position to "request" things. A keyword to learn here is "humility". I am nobody. You are nobody. Even Linus isn't really in a position to DEMAND that anyone do anything. Lots of people disagree with Linus and that is one of the reasons for distro vendors forking the kernel. Linux is like a democracy or an anarchy where everyone gets to decide for themselves if they want to comply with anyone else's opinions. Most people who make requests on LKML seem to implicitly understand this. But you are not the only one who doesn't. I can't force you to understand, but I can tell you that if you don't, people will be VERY unwilling to listen to you. Oh, and BTW, while I don't use SuSE on the desktop personally, we use it plenty where I work. We think it's GREAT. We also think lots of other distros are great too. But that's just our opinion. :) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/