Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S268331AbUIBO1Z (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:27:25 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S268334AbUIBO1Z (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:27:25 -0400 Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com ([192.11.222.163]:735 "EHLO ihemail2.lucent.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S268331AbUIBO1B (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:27:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16695.11572.597617.419870@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:24:52 -0400 From: "John Stoffel" To: Hans Reiser Cc: Linus Torvalds , David Masover , Jamie Lokier , Horst von Brand , Adrian Bunk , viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk, Christoph Hellwig , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Alexander Lyamin aka FLX , ReiserFS List Subject: Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives In-Reply-To: <4136E0B6.4000705@namesys.com> References: <20040826150202.GE5733@mail.shareable.org> <200408282314.i7SNErYv003270@localhost.localdomain> <20040901200806.GC31934@mail.shareable.org> <20040902002431.GN31934@mail.shareable.org> <413694E6.7010606@slaphack.com> <4136A14E.9010303@slaphack.com> <4136C876.5010806@namesys.com> <4136E0B6.4000705@namesys.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.14 under Emacs 20.6.1 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3368 Lines: 74 Hans> For 30 years nothing much has happened in Unix filesystem Hans> semantics because of sheer cowardice (excepting Clearcase, which Hans> priced itself into a niche market). Keeping a consistent namespace is cowardice? And ClearCase is an example of an application which sets up it's own namespace and grafts it onto the standard Unix one. Most standard Unix tools work just fine inside clearcase Views, but to manage the metadata (xattrs, or whatever you want to call them), you need to use the 'cleartool' command. Hmmm... sounds like 'runat' to me. Hans> It is 25 years past time for someone to change things. That Hans> someone will have first mover advantage, and the more little Hans> semantic features possessed the more lure there will be to use Hans> it which will increase market share which will lure more apps Hans> into depending on it and in a few years the other filesystems Hans> will (deservedly) have only a small market share because the Hans> apps won't all work on them. This is all pure marketing speak and economic theory. Show us the *technical* advantages, not just wishful thinking. Hans> Besides, there are enhancements which are simply compelling. Hans> You can write a dramatically better performance version control Hans> system with a much simpler design if the FS is atomic. Define atomic please, with state diagrams and clear examples. Hans> We have the performance lead. By next year we will be stable Hans> enough for mission critical servers, and then we start the Hans> serious semantic enhancements. I think you've got it backwards. Make your serious semantic enhancements first, then make it stable, then make it fast. Because when you change the semantics, you break all kinds of things and then it doesn't matter how fast you are. Hans> If you don't embrace progress, then you doom Linux to following Hans> behind, because the guys at Apple are pretty aggressive now that Hans> Jobs is back, and they WILL change the semantics, and they will Hans> do so in compelling ways, and Linux will be reduced to aping Hans> them when it should be leading them. Monkey see, Monkey do then. I'd like to point out another successful company which has extended the standard Unix namespace and that's 'Network Appliance' with it's .snapshot directory structure. It's a great idea and allows my users to restore files from snapshots without me having to think about it. But it still causes problems since when I use rsync to move data, I need to put in stuff like: rsync -az --exclude ".snapshot" --delete --delete-excluded to make sure it doesn't descend into that directory of previous versions and try to copy them over as well. And of course now now other apps can use the .snapshot name. But what if other vendors aped (ook ook) this decided to use their own names? Who decides which gets priority? I think you need to go back and re-read Pike's paper on namespaces that you pointed to before and mull it over. And look at how simplicity is inherently powerful. If the design is too complicated, you're probably doing it wrong. John - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/