Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S269217AbUIBWCR (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:02:17 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S269180AbUIBV71 (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:59:27 -0400 Received: from smtp.Lynuxworks.com ([207.21.185.24]:48133 "EHLO smtp.lynuxworks.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S269196AbUIBV6U (ORCPT ); Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:58:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:56:27 -0700 To: Alan Cox Cc: Linus Torvalds , Jamie Lokier , Horst von Brand , Adrian Bunk , Hans Reiser , viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk, Christoph Hellwig , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Linux Kernel Mailing List , Alexander Lyamin aka FLX , ReiserFS List Subject: Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was: silent semantic changes with reiser4) Message-ID: <20040902215627.GA15688@nietzsche.lynx.com> References: <20040826150202.GE5733@mail.shareable.org> <200408282314.i7SNErYv003270@localhost.localdomain> <20040901200806.GC31934@mail.shareable.org> <1094118362.4847.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1094150760.5809.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1094150760.5809.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040818i From: Bill Huey (hui) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2755 Lines: 54 On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 07:46:05PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2004-09-02 at 18:46, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > Gnome already supports this in the gnome-vfs2 layer. "MC" has supported > > > it since the late 1990's. > > > > And nobody has asked for kernel support that I know of. > > I asked our desktop people. They want something like inotify because > dontify doesn't cut it. They have zero interest in the multiple streams > and hiding icons in streams type stuff. It also depends on who you ask. I can't take a lot of the mainstream X folks serious since they are still using integer math as parameters to half broken drawing primitives and barely discovered things like OpenGL. Their attitude doesn't treat these things as first class citizens in what ever software system they create. They also haven't create a modern and highly dynamic structured document system that's in wide use yet, so this problem space hasn't really been pushed as hard as other much more dynamic systems. And the advent of XML (basically a primitive and flat model of what Hans is doing) for .NET style systems are going to push these systems into those areas in new and unique ways. (Actually retro Smalltalk-ish) It seems that many of the original ideas about "why" GUI systems exist have been lost to older commericial interests (Microsoft Win32) and that has wiped out the fundamental classic computer science backing this from history. This simple "MP3 metadata" stuff is a very superficial example of how something like this is used. The problems are fundamentally about data representation in a manner so simple that its "expressive power" (Hans here) can extend itself to even the dorkiest of shell scripts. To have that power immediately available as network/local objects and to have their relationships clearly defined is a very powerful manner to build software systems. Unix folks tend to forget that since they either have never done this kind of programming or never understood why this existed in the first place. It's about a top-down methodology effecting the entire design of the software system, not just purity Unix. If it can be integrate smoothly into the system, then it should IMO. The folks against this system forget about how important the context of all this is work is set in... The mindset is fundamentally different and I'm quite sick of hearing "It's not Unix" over and over again. And notion of Linux being marginalize to a minority OS over this stuff is just plain crazy. bill - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/