Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S268084AbUIJFEn (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:04:43 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S268094AbUIJFEn (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:04:43 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.198.35]:42750 "EHLO rwcrmhc11.comcast.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S268084AbUIJFEj (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:04:39 -0400 Message-ID: <414135E6.8050103@namesys.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:04:38 -0700 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Jakma CC: "Theodore Ts'o" , Robin Rosenberg , William Stearns , Linux Kernel Subject: Re: silent semantic changes in reiser4 (brief attempt to document the idea ofwhat reiser4 wants to do with metafiles and why References: <41323AD8.7040103@namesys.com> <413E170F.9000204@namesys.com> <200409080009.52683.robin.rosenberg.lists@dewire.com> <20040909090342.GA30303@thunk.org> <4140ABB6.6050702@namesys.com> <4140FBE7.6020704@namesys.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.85.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3455 Lines: 81 Paul Jakma wrote: > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Hans Reiser wrote: > >> It is not part of it at one level, but in the shell it is part of it. > > > Just one of many applications. Watch Joe-user save their word > processing file sometime, they'll use spaces, quotes, etc. With great unhappiness they will. > >> Have you looked at the political process at all? Or by lots of >> people, do you mean a sizable minority? > > > Kernel development does did you mean to have a "not" here? > require deep understanding by the majority of computer users. Only > kernel developers need deep understanding. ;) What makes you think kernel developers have a deep understanding of the value of connectivity in the OS? They don't. The average kernel developer is not particularly bright. Just ask Ted why htrees are slower than reiser4, or ext2 tail combining is slower, and, well, he has no clue. He is happy to explain how architects don't do real work and should not attend the Linux Kernel Summit, and then when reiser4 blows htrees away he undoubtedly still thinks I just take the credit away from the programmers who do the real work. They did real work, and they are the best in the field, but architecture also matters --- quite a lot actually. Maybe instead of free trade, I should have used anti-trust laws as my example. The percentage of persons who analytically understand both that free trade is vital and that anti-trust laws are a good thing is very small (and especially small at Harvard Law School). Average people can understand freedom. Understanding that one is not really free to choose to not purchase from a cartel is hard for many. Understanding that free markets are only a first approximation and that is why we need anti-trust laws is beyond perhaps even most economics PhDs. This is not due to a lack of education. I once had a boss explain to me how many people have trouble understanding orders of magnitude and ratios. He particularly meant his boss, who was having trouble understanding my report. We all have mental defects, we just have them in different areas from each other. (Forgive me for not enumerating mine....;-) ) Some technical matters are understood by much less than 50% of the population. Closure is one of them. For most people the value of closure can only be understood by using and liking a system that has it, and they are not capable of wanting it in advance during the design stages. Codd understood the importance of closure. You could sense his frustration at being unable to convey it to others in his writings. The search engine industry completely misses the importance of closure. This is why I just want to be left alone to tinker with reiser4. It is faster than other filesystems. People should assume I know what I am doing, and leave me to tinker in my little fs. 5 years later others will follow, or not, I don't care. > > The real question though is: Have you given Al Viro technical answers > to his technical questions? Yes, I did. Got no response. Would you like me to post something nice and technical to this thread?;-) I can send a summary of my design, and the answers I sent to Viro and Linus. > > regards, - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/