Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S261801AbVAMWo5 (ORCPT ); Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:44:57 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S261715AbVAMWme (ORCPT ); Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:42:34 -0500 Received: from fw.osdl.org ([65.172.181.6]:8905 "EHLO mail.osdl.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S261801AbVAMWln (ORCPT ); Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:41:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:41:29 -0800 (PST) From: Linus Torvalds To: Alan Cox cc: Arjan van de Ven , grendel@caudium.net, Chris Wright , Marcelo Tosatti , Greg KH , akpm@osdl.org, Linux Kernel Mailing List Subject: Re: thoughts on kernel security issues In-Reply-To: <1105650940.5193.141.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <20050112094807.K24171@build.pdx.osdl.net> <20050112185133.GA10687@kroah.com> <20050112161227.GF32024@logos.cnet> <20050112174203.GA691@logos.cnet> <1105627541.4624.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050113194246.GC24970@beowulf.thanes.org> <20050113115004.Z24171@build.pdx.osdl.net> <20050113202905.GD24970@beowulf.thanes.org> <1105645267.4644.112.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1105649837.6031.54.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <1105650940.5193.141.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2418 Lines: 53 On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2005-01-13 at 21:22, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > Are there advantages and upsides? Yes. Are there disadvantages? > > Indubitably. And anybody who disregards the disadvantages as "inevitable" > > is not really interested in fixing the game. > > So the next time I find a remote root hole I should post an exploit > example targetting kernel.org to the linux-kernel list ? Now where are > you going to publish the fix - bk is down, kernel.org is down ... > > Disclosre isn't quite as simple as you'd like. This is like saying "somebody will do the bad thing, it might as well be me". I don't believe that is a basis for doing things right. First off, I've tried to make it clear that while I believe in openness, my beliefs are not exclusive to anybody elses beliefs. I'd rather see shades of gray than absolute black-and-white. Secondly, I'd much rather have the mindset where we try to minimize the likelihood of a catastrophic failure. That includes having many _different_ ways of gettign things out: Bk, tar-balls, email. Diversity is a _fundamental_ security strength. It also includes having diversity in other areas, ie multiple architectures. I see vendor-sec as trying to treat the symptoms. It's a "take two aspirins, call me in the morning". And you seem to not even want to discuss treating the disease - and vendor-sec is PART of the disease. It's the drug that people get addicted to when they decided to treat the symptoms. I think Linux - just by the source being open - has one real treatmeant to one fundamental -cause- of insecurity, namely "we don't care, and we'll put our heads in the sane". Open source just doesn't allow that mentality. And similarly, I think truly open disclosure is another fundamental -treatment-, in that it doesn't _allow_ the mentality that vendor-sec tends to instill in people. Well, maybe not "treatment" per se: it's more like admitting you have a problem. It's like alcoholism. Admitting you have a problem is the first step. vendor-sec is the band-aid that allows you to try to ignore the problem ("I can handle it - I could stop any day"). Linus - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/