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Date:   Thu, 25 Apr 2019 20:53:43 +0200
From:   Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>
To:     Mel Gorman <mgorman@techsingularity.net>
Cc:     Aubrey Li <aubrey.intel@gmail.com>,
        Julien Desfossez <jdesfossez@digitalocean.com>,
        Vineeth Remanan Pillai <vpillai@digitalocean.com>,
        Nishanth Aravamudan <naravamudan@digitalocean.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
        Tim Chen <tim.c.chen@linux.intel.com>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
        Paul Turner <pjt@google.com>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
        Linux List Kernel Mailing <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
        Subhra Mazumdar <subhra.mazumdar@oracle.com>,
        Fr?d?ric Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>,
        Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
        Greg Kerr <kerrnel@google.com>, Phil Auld <pauld@redhat.com>,
        Aaron Lu <aaron.lwe@gmail.com>,
        Valentin Schneider <valentin.schneider@arm.com>,
        Pawan Gupta <pawan.kumar.gupta@linux.intel.com>,
        Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
        Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 00/17] Core scheduling v2
Message-ID: <20190425185343.GA122353@gmail.com>
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* Mel Gorman <mgorman@techsingularity.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:55:08AM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > > > Would it be possible to post the results with HT off as well ?
> > > 
> > > What's the point here to turn HT off? The latency is sensitive to the
> > > relationship
> > > between the task number and CPU number. Usually less CPU number, more run
> > > queue wait time, and worse result.
> > 
> > HT-off numbers are mandatory: turning HT off is by far the simplest way 
> > to solve the security bugs in these CPUs.
> > 
> > Any core-scheduling solution *must* perform better than HT-off for all 
> > relevant workloads, otherwise what's the point?
> > 
> 
> I agree. Not only should HT-off be evaluated but it should properly
> evaluate for different levels of machine utilisation to get a complete
> picture.
> 
> Around the same time this was first posted and because of kernel
> warnings from L1TF, I did a preliminary evaluation of HT On vs HT Off
> using nosmt -- this is sub-optimal in itself but it was convenient. The
> conventional wisdom that HT gets a 30% boost appears to be primarily based
> on academic papers evaluating HPC workloads on a Pentium 4 with a focus
> on embarassingly parallel problems which is the ideal case for HT but not
> the universal case. The conventional wisdom is questionable at best. The
> only modern comparisons I could find were focused on games primarily
> which I think hit scaling limits before HT is a factor in some cases.
> 
> I don't have the data in a format that can be present everything in a clear
> format but here is an attempt anyway. This is long but the central point
> that when when a machine is lightly loaded, HT Off generally performs
> better than HT On and even when heavily utilised, it's still not a
> guaranteed loss. I only suggest reading after this if you have coffee
> and time. Ideally all this would be updated with a comparison to core
> scheduling but I may not get it queued on my test grid before I leave
> for LSF/MM and besides, the authors pushing this feature should be able
> to provide supporting data justifying the complexity of the series.

BTW., a side note: I'd suggest introducing a runtime toggle 'nosmt' 
facility, i.e. turn a system between SMT and non-SMT execution runtime, 
with full reversability between these states and no restrictions.

That should make both benchmarking more convenient (no kernel reboots and 
kernel parameters to check), and it would also make it easier for system 
administrators to experiment with how SMT and no-SMT affects their 
typical workloads.

> Here is a tbench comparison scaling from a low thread count to a high
> thread count. I picked tbench because it's relatively uncomplicated and
> tends to be reasonable at spotting scheduler regressions. The kernel
> version is old but for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter
> 
> 1-socket Skylake (8 logical CPUs HT On, 4 logical CPUs HT Off)

Side question: while obviously most of the core-sched interest is 
concentrated around Intel's HyperThreading SMT, I'm wondering whether you 
have any data regarding AMD systems - in particular Ryzen based CPUs 
appear to have a pretty robust SMT implementation.

> Hmean     1       484.00 (   0.00%)      519.95 *   7.43%*
> Hmean     2       925.02 (   0.00%)     1022.28 *  10.51%*
> Hmean     4      1730.34 (   0.00%)     2029.81 *  17.31%*
> Hmean     8      2883.57 (   0.00%)     2040.89 * -29.22%*
> Hmean     16     2830.61 (   0.00%)     2039.74 * -27.94%*
> Hmean     32     2855.54 (   0.00%)     2042.70 * -28.47%*
> Stddev    1         1.16 (   0.00%)        0.62 (  46.43%)
> Stddev    2         1.31 (   0.00%)        1.00 (  23.32%)
> Stddev    4         4.89 (   0.00%)       12.86 (-163.14%)
> Stddev    8         4.30 (   0.00%)        2.53 (  40.99%)
> Stddev    16        3.38 (   0.00%)        5.92 ( -75.08%)
> Stddev    32        5.47 (   0.00%)       14.28 (-160.77%)
> 
> Note that disabling HT performs better when cores are available but hits
> scaling limits past 4 CPUs when the machine is saturated with HT off.
> It's similar with 2 sockets
>
> 2-socket Broadwell (80 logical CPUs HT On, 40 logical CPUs HT Off)
> 
>                                 smt                  nosmt
> Hmean     1        514.28 (   0.00%)      540.90 *   5.18%*
> Hmean     2        982.19 (   0.00%)     1042.98 *   6.19%*
> Hmean     4       1820.02 (   0.00%)     1943.38 *   6.78%*
> Hmean     8       3356.73 (   0.00%)     3655.92 *   8.91%*
> Hmean     16      6240.53 (   0.00%)     7057.57 *  13.09%*
> Hmean     32     10584.60 (   0.00%)    15934.82 *  50.55%*
> Hmean     64     24967.92 (   0.00%)    21103.79 * -15.48%*
> Hmean     128    27106.28 (   0.00%)    20822.46 * -23.18%*
> Hmean     256    28345.15 (   0.00%)    21625.67 * -23.71%*
> Hmean     320    28358.54 (   0.00%)    21768.70 * -23.24%*
> Stddev    1          2.10 (   0.00%)        3.44 ( -63.59%)
> Stddev    2          2.46 (   0.00%)        4.83 ( -95.91%)
> Stddev    4          7.57 (   0.00%)        6.14 (  18.86%)
> Stddev    8          6.53 (   0.00%)       11.80 ( -80.79%)
> Stddev    16        11.23 (   0.00%)       16.03 ( -42.74%)
> Stddev    32        18.99 (   0.00%)       22.04 ( -16.10%)
> Stddev    64        10.86 (   0.00%)       14.31 ( -31.71%)
> Stddev    128       25.10 (   0.00%)       16.08 (  35.93%)
> Stddev    256       29.95 (   0.00%)       71.39 (-138.36%)
> 
> Same -- performance is better until the machine gets saturated and
> disabling HT hits scaling limits earlier.

Interesting. This strongly suggests sub-optimal SMT-scheduling in the 
non-saturated HT case, i.e. a scheduler balancing bug.

As long as loads are clearly below the physical cores count (which they 
are in the early phases of your table) the scheduler should spread tasks 
without overlapping two tasks on the same core.

Clearly it doesn't.

> SpecJBB 2005 is ancient but it does lend itself to easily scaling the
> number of active tasks so here is a sample of the performance as
> utilisation ramped up to saturation
> 
> 2-socket
> Hmean     tput-1     48655.00 (   0.00%)    48762.00 *   0.22%*
> Hmean     tput-8    387341.00 (   0.00%)   390062.00 *   0.70%*
> Hmean     tput-15   660993.00 (   0.00%)   659832.00 *  -0.18%*
> Hmean     tput-22   916898.00 (   0.00%)   913570.00 *  -0.36%*
> Hmean     tput-29  1178601.00 (   0.00%)  1169843.00 *  -0.74%*
> Hmean     tput-36  1292377.00 (   0.00%)  1387003.00 *   7.32%*
> Hmean     tput-43  1458913.00 (   0.00%)  1508172.00 *   3.38%*
> Hmean     tput-50  1411975.00 (   0.00%)  1513536.00 *   7.19%*
> Hmean     tput-57  1417937.00 (   0.00%)  1495513.00 *   5.47%*
> Hmean     tput-64  1396242.00 (   0.00%)  1477433.00 *   5.81%*
> Hmean     tput-71  1349055.00 (   0.00%)  1472856.00 *   9.18%*
> Hmean     tput-78  1265738.00 (   0.00%)  1453846.00 *  14.86%*
> Hmean     tput-79  1307367.00 (   0.00%)  1446572.00 *  10.65%*
> Hmean     tput-80  1309718.00 (   0.00%)  1449384.00 *  10.66%*
> 
> This was the most surprising result -- HT off was generally a benefit
> even when the counts were higher than the available CPUs and I'm not
> sure why. It's also interesting with HT off that the chances of keeping
> a workload local to a node are reduced as a socket gets saturated earlier
> but the load balancer is generally moving tasks around and NUMA Balancing
> is also in play. Still, it shows that disabling HT is not a universal loss.

Interesting indeed. Could there be some batch execution benefit, i.e. by 
having fewer CPUs to execute on the tasks do not crowd out and trash 
die/socket level caches as badly? With no-HT the workload had more 
threads than CPUs to execute on and the tasks were forced into neat 
queues of execution and cache trashing would be limited to the short 
period after a task was scheduled in?

If this was on the 40-physical-core Broadwell system and the 'X' tput-X 
roughly correlates to CPU utilization then this seems plausible, as the 
improvements start roughly at the ~tput-40 bondary and increase 
afterwards.

> netperf is inherently about two tasks. For UDP_STREAM, it shows almost
> no difference and it's within noise. TCP_STREAM was interesting
> 
> Hmean     64        1154.23 (   0.00%)     1162.69 *   0.73%*
> Hmean     128       2194.67 (   0.00%)     2230.90 *   1.65%*
> Hmean     256       3867.89 (   0.00%)     3929.99 *   1.61%*
> Hmean     1024     12714.52 (   0.00%)    12913.81 *   1.57%*
> Hmean     2048     21141.11 (   0.00%)    21266.89 (   0.59%)
> Hmean     3312     27945.71 (   0.00%)    28354.82 (   1.46%)
> Hmean     4096     30594.24 (   0.00%)    30666.15 (   0.24%)
> Hmean     8192     37462.58 (   0.00%)    36901.45 (  -1.50%)
> Hmean     16384    42947.02 (   0.00%)    43565.98 *   1.44%*
> Stddev    64           2.21 (   0.00%)        4.02 ( -81.62%)
> Stddev    128         18.45 (   0.00%)       11.11 (  39.79%)
> Stddev    256         30.84 (   0.00%)       22.10 (  28.33%)
> Stddev    1024       141.46 (   0.00%)       56.54 (  60.03%)
> Stddev    2048       200.39 (   0.00%)       75.56 (  62.29%)
> Stddev    3312       411.11 (   0.00%)      286.97 (  30.20%)
> Stddev    4096       299.86 (   0.00%)      322.44 (  -7.53%)
> Stddev    8192       418.80 (   0.00%)      635.63 ( -51.77%)
> Stddev    16384      661.57 (   0.00%)      206.73 (  68.75%)
> 
> The performance difference is marginal but variance is much reduced
> by disabling HT. Now, it's important to note that this particular test
> did not control for c-states and it did not bind tasks so there are a
> lot of potential sources of noise. I didn't control for them because
> I don't think many normal users would properly take concerns like that
> into account. MMtests is able to control for those factors so it could
> be independently checked.

Interesting. This too suggests suboptimal scheduling: with just 2 tasks 
there might be two major modes of execution: either the two tasks end up 
on the same physical core or not. If the scheduler isn't entirely 
consistent about this choice then we might see big variations in 
execution, depending on whether running the two tasks on different 
physical cores is better to performance or not.

This stddev artifact could be narrowed down further by using taskset to 
force the benchmark on 2 logical CPUs, and by making those 2 CPUs HT 
siblings or not we could see which execution is the more optimal one. 

My prediction, which is easily falsifiable is that stddev noise should 
reduce dramatically in such a 2-CPU restricted 'taskset' based affinity 
jail, *regardless* of whether the two CPUs are actually on the same 
physical core or not.

> hackbench is the most obvious loser. This is for processes communicating
> via pipes.
> 
> Amean     1        0.7343 (   0.00%)      1.1377 * -54.93%*
> Amean     4        1.1647 (   0.00%)      2.1543 * -84.97%*
> Amean     7        1.6770 (   0.00%)      3.1300 * -86.64%*
> Amean     12       2.4500 (   0.00%)      4.6447 * -89.58%*
> Amean     21       3.9927 (   0.00%)      6.8250 * -70.94%*
> Amean     30       5.5320 (   0.00%)      8.6433 * -56.24%*
> Amean     48       8.4723 (   0.00%)     12.1890 * -43.87%*
> Amean     79      12.3760 (   0.00%)     17.8347 * -44.11%*
> Amean     110     16.0257 (   0.00%)     23.1373 * -44.38%*
> Amean     141     20.7070 (   0.00%)     29.8537 * -44.17%*
> Amean     172     25.1507 (   0.00%)     37.4830 * -49.03%*
> Amean     203     28.5303 (   0.00%)     43.5220 * -52.55%*
> Amean     234     33.8233 (   0.00%)     51.5403 * -52.38%*
> Amean     265     37.8703 (   0.00%)     58.1860 * -53.65%*
> Amean     296     43.8303 (   0.00%)     64.9223 * -48.12%*
> Stddev    1        0.0040 (   0.00%)      0.0117 (-189.97%)
> Stddev    4        0.0046 (   0.00%)      0.0766 (-1557.56%)
> Stddev    7        0.0333 (   0.00%)      0.0991 (-197.83%)
> Stddev    12       0.0425 (   0.00%)      0.1303 (-206.90%)
> Stddev    21       0.0337 (   0.00%)      0.4138 (-1127.60%)
> Stddev    30       0.0295 (   0.00%)      0.1551 (-424.94%)
> Stddev    48       0.0445 (   0.00%)      0.2056 (-361.71%)
> Stddev    79       0.0350 (   0.00%)      0.4118 (-1076.56%)
> Stddev    110      0.0655 (   0.00%)      0.3685 (-462.72%)
> Stddev    141      0.3670 (   0.00%)      0.5488 ( -49.55%)
> Stddev    172      0.7375 (   0.00%)      1.0806 ( -46.52%)
> Stddev    203      0.0817 (   0.00%)      1.6920 (-1970.11%)
> Stddev    234      0.8210 (   0.00%)      1.4036 ( -70.97%)
> Stddev    265      0.9337 (   0.00%)      1.1025 ( -18.08%)
> Stddev    296      1.5688 (   0.00%)      0.4154 (  73.52%)
> 
> The problem with hackbench is that "1" above doesn't represent 1 task,
> it represents 1 group and so the machine gets saturated relatively
> quickly and it's super sensitive to cores being idle and available to
> make quick progress.

hackbench is also super sensitive to the same group of ~20 tasks being 
able to progress at once, and hence is pretty noisy.

The flip-over between hackbench being able to progress effectively and a 
half-scheduled group hindering all the others seems to be super 
non-deterministic and can be triggered by random events both within 
hackbench, and other things happening on the machine.

So while hackbench is somewhat artificial in its intensity and load 
levels, it still matches messaging server peak loads so it's still 
consider it an imporant metric of scheduling quality.

I'm wondering whether the scheduler could do anything to reduce the 
non-determinism of hackbench.

BTW., note that 'perf bench scheduling' is a hackbench work-alike:

 dagon:~/tip> perf bench sched messaging
 # Running 'sched/messaging' benchmark:
 # 20 sender and receiver processes per group
 # 10 groups == 400 processes run

     Total time: 0.158 [sec]

It also has a threaded variant (which is a hackbench-pthread work-alike):

 dagon:~/tip> perf bench sched messaging --thread --group 20
 # Running 'sched/messaging' benchmark:
 # 20 sender and receiver threads per group
 # 20 groups == 800 threads run

     Total time: 0.265 [sec]

I'm trying to distill the most important scheduler micro-benchmarks into 
'perf bench':

  dagon:~/tip> perf bench sched

        # List of available benchmarks for collection 'sched':

     messaging: Benchmark for scheduling and IPC
          pipe: Benchmark for pipe() between two processes
           all: Run all scheduler benchmarks

which is still stuck at a very low count of 2 benchmarks currently.
:-)

> Kernel building which is all anyone ever cares about is a mixed bag
> 
> 1-socket
> Amean     elsp-2       420.45 (   0.00%)      240.80 *  42.73%*
> Amean     elsp-4       363.54 (   0.00%)      135.09 *  62.84%*
> Amean     elsp-8       105.40 (   0.00%)      131.46 * -24.73%*
> Amean     elsp-16      106.61 (   0.00%)      133.57 * -25.29%*
> 
> 2-socket
> Amean     elsp-2        406.76 (   0.00%)      448.57 ( -10.28%)
> Amean     elsp-4        235.22 (   0.00%)      289.48 ( -23.07%)
> Amean     elsp-8        152.36 (   0.00%)      116.76 (  23.37%)
> Amean     elsp-16        64.50 (   0.00%)       52.12 *  19.20%*
> Amean     elsp-32        30.28 (   0.00%)       28.24 *   6.74%*
> Amean     elsp-64        21.67 (   0.00%)       23.00 *  -6.13%*
> Amean     elsp-128       20.57 (   0.00%)       23.57 * -14.60%*
> Amean     elsp-160       20.64 (   0.00%)       23.63 * -14.50%*
> Stddev    elsp-2         75.35 (   0.00%)       35.00 (  53.55%)
> Stddev    elsp-4         71.12 (   0.00%)       86.09 ( -21.05%)
> Stddev    elsp-8         43.05 (   0.00%)       10.67 (  75.22%)
> Stddev    elsp-16         4.08 (   0.00%)        2.31 (  43.41%)
> Stddev    elsp-32         0.51 (   0.00%)        0.76 ( -48.60%)
> Stddev    elsp-64         0.38 (   0.00%)        0.61 ( -60.72%)
> Stddev    elsp-128        0.13 (   0.00%)        0.41 (-207.53%)
> Stddev    elsp-160        0.08 (   0.00%)        0.20 (-147.93%)
> 
> 1-socket matches other patterns, the 2-socket was weird. Variability was
> nuts for low number of jobs. It's also not universal. I had tested in a
> 2-socket Haswell machine and it showed different results
> 
> Amean     elsp-2       447.91 (   0.00%)      467.43 (  -4.36%)
> Amean     elsp-4       284.47 (   0.00%)      248.37 (  12.69%)
> Amean     elsp-8       166.20 (   0.00%)      129.23 (  22.24%)
> Amean     elsp-16       63.89 (   0.00%)       55.63 *  12.93%*
> Amean     elsp-32       36.80 (   0.00%)       35.87 *   2.54%*
> Amean     elsp-64       30.97 (   0.00%)       36.94 * -19.28%*
> Amean     elsp-96       31.66 (   0.00%)       37.32 * -17.89%*
> Stddev    elsp-2        58.08 (   0.00%)       57.93 (   0.25%)
> Stddev    elsp-4        65.31 (   0.00%)       41.56 (  36.36%)
> Stddev    elsp-8        68.32 (   0.00%)       15.61 (  77.15%)
> Stddev    elsp-16        3.68 (   0.00%)        2.43 (  33.87%)
> Stddev    elsp-32        0.29 (   0.00%)        0.97 (-239.75%)
> Stddev    elsp-64        0.36 (   0.00%)        0.24 (  32.10%)
> Stddev    elsp-96        0.30 (   0.00%)        0.31 (  -5.11%)
> 
> Still not a perfect match to the general pattern for 2 build jobs and a
> bit variable but otherwise the pattern holds -- performs better until the
> machine is saturated. Kernel builds (or compilation builds) are always a
> bit off as a benchmark as it has a mix of parallel and serialised tasks
> that are non-deterministic.

Interesting.

Here too I'm wondering whether the scheduler could do something to 
improve the saturated case: which *is* an important workload, as kernel 
hackers tend to over-load their systems a bit when building kernel, to 
make sure the system is at least 100% utilized. ;-)

Probably not though, without injecting too much policy. We could perhaps 
repurpose SCHED_BATCH to be even more batch scheduling, i.e. to reduce 
the non-determinism of the over-loaded machines in an even more assertive 
manner? As long as there's enough RAM and no serios async IO the kbuild 
gets perturbed by (which should be true these days) this should be 
possible to do. We could then stick SCHED_BATCH into the kbuild process, 
to make more than 0.01% of kernel developers use it. Win-win. :-)

> With the NASA Parallel Benchmark (NPB, aka NAS) it's trickier to do a
> valid comparison. Over-saturating NAS decimates performance but there
> are limits on the exact thread counts that can be used for MPI. OpenMP
> is less restrictive but here is an MPI comparison anyway comparing a
> fully loaded HT On with fully loaded HT Off -- this is crucial, HT Off
> has half the level of parallelisation
> 
> Amean     bt      771.15 (   0.00%)      926.98 * -20.21%*
> Amean     cg      445.92 (   0.00%)      465.65 *  -4.42%*
> Amean     ep       70.01 (   0.00%)       97.15 * -38.76%*
> Amean     is       16.75 (   0.00%)       19.08 * -13.95%*
> Amean     lu      882.84 (   0.00%)      902.60 *  -2.24%*
> Amean     mg       84.10 (   0.00%)       95.95 * -14.10%*
> Amean     sp     1353.88 (   0.00%)     1372.23 *  -1.36%*
> 
> ep is the embarassingly parallel problem and it shows with half the cores
> with HT off, we take a 38.76% performance hit. However, even that is not
> universally true as cg for example did not parallelise as well and only
> performacne 4.42% worse even with HT off.

Very interesting. I'm wondering what kind of workload 'ep' is exactly, 
and would love to have a work-alike in 'perf sched bench'.

Do these benchmarks over-saturate by default, and is this really 
representative of how all the large compute cluster folks are *using* 
MPI?

I thought the more common pattern was to closely tailor MPI parallelism 
to available (logical) cores parallelism, to minimize shared cache 
trashing in an oversubscribed scenario, but I could be wrong.

> I can show a comparison with equal levels of parallelisation but with 
> HT off, it is a completely broken configuration and I do not think a 
> comparison like that makes any sense.

I would still be interested in that comparison, because I'd like
to learn whether there's any true *inherent* performance advantage to 
HyperThreading for that particular workload, for exactly tuned 
parallelism.

Even if nobody is going to run the NPB/NAS benchmark that way.

> I didn't do any comparison that could represent Cloud. However, I think
> it's worth noting that HT may be popular there for packing lots of virtual
> machines onto a single host and over-subscribing. HT would intuitively
> have an advantage there *but* it depends heavily on the utilisation and
> whether there is sustained VCPU activity where the number of active VCPUs
> exceeds physical CPUs when HT is off. There is also the question whether
> performance even matters on such configurations but anything cloud related
> will be "how long is a piece of string" and "it depends".

Intuitively I'd guess that because all the cloud providers are pushing 
for core-sched HT is probably a win in cloud benchmarks, if not for the 
pesky security problems. ;-)

> So there you have it, HT Off is not a guaranteed loss and can be a gain
> so it should be considered as an alternative to core scheduling. The case
> where HT makes a big difference is when a workload is CPU or memory bound
> and the number of active tasks exceeds the number of CPUs on a socket
> and again when number of active tasks exceeds the number of CPUs in the
> whole machine.

Fascinating measurements, thanks a lot Mel for doing these!

This is super useful.

Thanks,

	Ingo