Message-ID: <41FBCC91.8010602@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:49:05 -0500
From: John Richard Moser <nigelenki@comcast.net>
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To: Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com>
CC: Rik van Riel <riel@redhat.com>, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>,
       linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, akpm@osdl.org
Subject: Re: Patch 4/6  randomize the stack pointer
References: <20050127101322.GE9760@infradead.org> <41F92721.1030903@comcast.net> <1106848051.5624.110.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <41F92D2B.4090302@comcast.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0501271010130.2362@ppc970.osdl.org> <41F95F79.6080904@comcast.net> <1106862801.5624.145.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <41F96C7D.9000506@comcast.net> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0501282147090.19494@chimarrao.boston.redhat.com> <41FB2DD2.1070405@comcast.net> <20050129173704.GM11199@devserv.devel.redhat.com>
In-Reply-To: <20050129173704.GM11199@devserv.devel.redhat.com>
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Jakub Jelinek wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 01:31:46AM -0500, John Richard Moser wrote:
> 
>>Finally, although an NX stack is nice, you should probably take into
>>account IBM's stack smash protector, ProPolice.  Any attack that can
>>evade SSP reliably can evade an NX stack; but ProPolice protects from
>>other overflows.  Now I'm sure RH is over there inventing something that
>>detects buffer overflows at compile time and misses or warns about the
>>ones it can't identify:
>>
>>if (strlen(a) > 4)
>>  a[5] = '\0';
>>foo(a);
>>
>>void foo(char *a) {
>>   char b[5];
>>   strcpy(b,a);
>>}
>>
>>This code is safe, but you can't tell from looking at foo().  You don't
>>get a look at every other object being compiled against this one that
>>may call foo() either.  So compile time buffer overflow detection is a
>>best-effort at best.
> 
> 
> If strlen(a) > 4 above, then -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE={1,2} compiled program
> will be terminated in the strcpy call.  At compile time it computes
> that the strcpy call can fill in at most 5 bytes and if it copies more,
> then it terminates.

And somehow you check every operation like this with less overhead than
propolice?

> 
> 
>>ProPolice protects local variables with 0 overhead; passed arguments
>>with a few instructions; and the return pointer and stack frame pointer
>>with a couple instructions.  At runtime.  Want to impress me?  Actually
>>deploy ProPolice instead of showing up 3 years from now waving around
>>your own patch that you wrote that half-impliments half of it.  If you
>>want "something better," it's GPL, so grab it and start hacking.
> 
> 
> __builtin_object_size () checking/-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=n changes are (partly)
> orthogonal to ProPolice.  There are exploits prevented by
> -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE={1,2} checking and not ProPolice and vice versa.

So a belt-and-suspenders approach is better.

> Things that the former protects and the latter does not are e.g.
> some non-automatic buffer overflows or heap overflows, some format string
> vulnerabilities and for automatic variables e.g. those that don't
> overflow into another function's frame, but just overwrite other local
> variables in the same function.  ProPolice on the other side will detect
> stack overflows that overflow into another function's frame,

or past the top of any buffer by at most 2 ints (I didn't check with 1
int or 1 char when I wrote my regression suite), definitely before it
hits the SFP and return pointer

> even if they
> aren't done through string operations (<string.h>, s*printf, gets, etc.)
> or if the compiler can't figure out what certain arguments to these
> functions points to (and where) at compile time.
> 
> The ideas in IBM's ProPolice changes are good and worth
> implementing, but the current implementation is bad.
> 

Lies.  I've read the paper on the current implementation, it's
definitely good.  It only operates on C/C++ code though, but that's the
scope of it.

> FYI, you can find some details about -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=n in
> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2004-09/msg02055.html
> 
> 	Jakub
> 

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All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.

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