Message-ID: <428E57E2.2090204@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:34:26 -0400
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@pobox.com>
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To: Grant Grundler <grundler@parisc-linux.org>
CC: akpm@osdl.org, T-Bone@parisc-linux.org, varenet@parisc-linux.org,
       Linux Kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
       Netdev <netdev@oss.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: patch tulip-natsemi-dp83840a-phy-fix.patch added to -mm tree
References: <200505101955.j4AJtX9x032464@shell0.pdx.osdl.net> <42881C58.40001@pobox.com> <20050516050843.GA20107@colo.lackof.org> <4288CE51.1050703@pobox.com> <20050516222612.GD9282@colo.lackof.org> <428E3372.403@pobox.com> <20050520211229.GA2411@colo.lackof.org>
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Grant Grundler wrote:
> On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 02:58:58PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> 
>>Grant Grundler wrote:
>>
>>>After three years of using/maintaining the (trivial) tulip patch
>>>in parisc-linux tree (and shipped with RH/SuSe ia64 releases),
>>>I don't recall anyone complaining that udelays in tulip phy reset
>>>caused them problems. Sorry, I'm unmotivated to revisit this.
>>>Convince someone else to make tulip to use workqueues and I'll
>>>resubmit a clean patch on top of that for the phy init sequences.
>>
>>
>>Long delays are unacceptable in new drivers,
> 
> 
> Agreed. But that didn't stop tg3 from having a 1.5 *SECOND*
> spin delay during fiber phy init with interrupts off.
> That is certainly a much newer driver than tulip.
> 
> (It's not obvious to me by code inspection which context
>  tg3_setup_fiber_by_hand() gets called from now.)

Yes, tg3 is awful in this regard.  I have made a bit of progress by 
moving some of the stuff into a workqueue.

I got multiple reports from embedded tg3 platform developers, who had to 
really muck up the driver to fix the delay issue.  It was apparently 
_really_ noticeable on one embedded platform.


>>and we are working to remove them from older drivers.
>>
>>Lack of complaints is irrelevant -- its 
>>a design requirement of all drivers.
> 
> 
> It's totally relevant.
> Complaints (bug reports) and patches drive change.  That's how both
> commercial *and* non-commercial developers prioritize.
> 
> "Ingo and the real-time crowd" are a good example of a change
> in priorities driven by non-commercial users.

No, these are commercial users.  Embedded space really cares about this 
stuff.


>>Ingo and the real-time crowd are fighting against every delay, because 
>>every delay causes a spin, a blip in latency, an increase in CPU usage, 
>>and a complete stoppage of ALL work on a uniprocessor machine.
> 
> 
> Understood. But they were not the first ones. Donald Becker has a fairly
> well known digust for use of CPU spin loops.  But we can't eliminate
> *all* udelay just becuase of the way HW is designed and has bugs.
> I think it would be reasonable to get rid of many udelay calls
> (replace them with PCI read delay loops like Donald has advocated)
> and get the rest into a context where it matters less.
> I have no objection to people fixing those sorts of issues.

If you recognize the issue, you should object to new changes adding new 
issues!


>>Your patch is not a special case.  We have been communicating this 
>>message on udelay/mdelay for -years-.  All your patch [as-is] does is 
>>cause more work for someone else.
> 
> 
> Not true. This patch brings the tulip driver into compliance with
> published specs and makes the driver functional for parisc/mips/ia64 users.

Ok, yes, it fixes the tulip issue AND causes work for others.


>>This also presents a problem that Andrew points out on occasion:
>>what happens when a patch is useful, but the patch author isn't (for 
>>whatever reason) doing the legwork necessary to get it into the mainline 
>>kernel?
> 
> 
> The "whatever reason" is clearly decided by the mainline kernel maintainer.
> If we treat other people's labor as "free", then the right answer is
> to drop the patch and wait for some subset of "we" to do the extra legwork.

Um, this is how all kernel development works :)

Maintainers are not supposed to merge patches into upstream, if they 
have flaws still remaining to be corrected.


> Several people care if tulip phy init works right. OTOH, I'm only aware of
> one person who specifically cares if tulip is holding the CPU hostage for
> 1 or 2 ms during the occasional phy init.
> 
> Is being a technology purist more important than moving forward with
> what people care about?

There will _always_ be ugly patches that get hardware going for some users.

Tons of changes are kept outside the kernel until they are ready.  This 
is just one more example.

Merging code into the kernel is a big deal.  That code will have to be 
maintained for years, maybe decades.  "when in doubt, don't merge" is 
generally the right answer.

I don't want your patch to become an issue that embedded developers must 
address (like the tg3 example above), causing further patching and 
headache in that area.

	Jeff


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