Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1030293AbVJERk7 (ORCPT ); Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:40:59 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1030296AbVJERk7 (ORCPT ); Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:40:59 -0400 Received: from smtp.enter.net ([216.193.128.24]:21261 "EHLO smtp.enter.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1030293AbVJERk6 (ORCPT ); Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:40:58 -0400 From: "D. Hazelton" To: Marc Perkel Subject: Re: what's next for the linux kernel? Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:45:52 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 Cc: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <20051002204703.GG6290@lkcl.net> <200510050122.39307.dhazelton@enter.net> <4343694F.5000709@perkel.com> In-Reply-To: <4343694F.5000709@perkel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1524345.mzOcXRejMQ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200510051346.00853.dhazelton@enter.net> X-Virus-Checker-Version: Enter.Net Virus Scanner 1.1 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5648 Lines: 128 --nextPart1524345.mzOcXRejMQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary-01=_Rk9QDWY+qqrGEZZ" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --Boundary-01=_Rk9QDWY+qqrGEZZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday 05 October 2005 05:49, Marc Perkel wrote: > D. Hazelton wrote: > >>Novell Netware type permissions. ACLs are a step in the right > >>direction but Linux isn't any where near where Novell was back in > >>1990. Linux lets you - for example - to delete files that you > >> have no read or write access rights to. > > > >As someone else pointed out, this is because unlinking is related > > to your access permissions on the parent directory and not the > > file. > > Right - that's Unix "inside the box" thinking. The idea is to make > the operating system smarter so that the user doesn't have to deal > with what's computer friendly - but reather what makes sense to the > user. From a user's perspective if you have not rights to access a > file then why should you be allowed to delete it? You're confusing concepts. In Unix unlinking a file is not the same as=20 deleting it. As has already been said, to remove content from a file,=20 you truncate it, which, no surprise, requires that you have write=20 access to a file. Even in DOS deleting a file, unless you use a=20 secure delete program, doesn't delete the file - it merely changes=20 the name slightly and marks the chain of FAT cluster entries as=20 usable.=20 I've had the displeasure of having to fix a netware system that had=20 been so fsked up by an admin that had been fired that it was easier=20 for me to remove the volume and restore it from a backup. The problem=20 was that he made a large number of files with the administrative=20 account removed from the ACL's... And the same problem plagues=20 (plagued? I haven't checked up on this in a while) NTFS. It is all to=20 possible to create a bunch of files with "Administrator" and all=20 other "Administrator" class users form the ACL's and then kill that=20 user. > Now - the idea is to create choice. If you need to emulate Unix > nehavior for compatibility that's fine. But I would migrate away > from that into a permissions paradygme that worked like Netware. So provide a filesystem and a set of tools for that filesystem. Nobody=20 is standing in your way and the Linux filesystem and block device=20 layers are open enough that this is an easy (though not simple) task. > I started with Netware and I'm spoiled. They had it right 15 years > ago and Linux isn't any where near what I was with Netware and DOS > in 1990. Once you've had this kind of permission power Linux is a > real big step down. Oh, so that explains it. You got used to one paradigm and haven't been=20 able to adjust to another. Well, as I have previously said, go ahead=20 and provide us with the work. > So - the thread is about the future so I say - time to fix Unix. Time to fix Unix? I doubt something seriously borked would have=20 outlasted every other OS on the market. Unix was around before=20 Netware and, IMHO, will be around a long time after the last=20 adherents of NetWare are gone. (and with MS doing it's level best to=20 kill NetWare with it's own shared filesystems and built-in networking=20 this cannot be that far off. After all, Netware was developed to fill=20 a vacancy in the MS world.) 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