Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:19:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
To: Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>
cc: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>,
       LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: 3D video card recommendations
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On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Steven Rostedt wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 08:42 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>
>> people who buy a 3D card for linux that depends on a closed source
>> module take a few risks, and they should be aware of them (I suspect
>> they are) so let me make some of them explicit:
>
> Are there good 3D cards that don't depend on a proprietary module, that
> can run on a AMD64 board?  That was pretty much my questing to begin
> with :)

radeon 9200/9250 is decent though not exceptional (quality is fine, 
opengl performance is about 2 years behind state of the art). and uses the 
opensource x.org radeon opengl module.

>>
>> By buying a piece of hardware that requires a closed module you take the
>> risk that one of the following can happen at any time
>
> Yep, I know all these, since I've been a NVidia user for some time.  But
> NVidia was good enough for my needs since the only times I needed 3D was
> when I wasn't playing with experimental kernels.
>
>>
>> 1) The vendor in the future stops considering linux important and you're
>> stuck with old kernels; for example as a side-effect of getting a good
>> deal to supply graphics chips to a certain game console maker
>
> I was able to get some hacks out for NVidia on some new kernels before
> they were official released.  But they were not great, just worked.
>
>> 2) The vendor in the future stops considering the hardware you bought
>> important enough to spend time on; after all they got their cash and the
>> product cycles for consumer hardware are often in the 3 to 6 month
>> timeframe. Result: you're stuck with old kernels.
>
> So far NVidia is good at having one driver to do most of their boards.
> It would take a major design change of a model to stop this, and by
> then, I would probably have a new video card anyway.
>
>> 3) The vendor gets sued and convicted for GPL violations and stops doing
>> linux as a result. (not saying it will happen, but it sure is a risk you
>> are taking)
>
> Could happen, but I doubt it.  This might happen if one of the above do
> first :)
>
>> 4) The linux kernel developers change the kernel in a way that the
>> module in question no longer is possible and the vendor stops updating
>> the driver
>
> I've also hacked my kernel to get NVidia working. (Changing
> EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL back to EXPORT_SYMBOL)  It's ok as long as I'm using
> this just for myself.  Which currently I am.
>
>> 5) The vendor goes out of business and thus stops updating the driver
>
> MS folks would have the same problem.
>
>> 6) The vendor doesn't release an x86-64 binary (or other architecture)
>> and your next PC can't use the module anymore
>
> Hmm, x86-64 _is_ what I'll be using this on :-/
>
>> 7) The vendor starts charging money for the driver or updates thereof.
>
> Good way to lose customers.
>
>>
>> Open source is not just something for developers, but also for users. It
>> means that you or anyone else can keep the open driver going even when
>> the manufacturer stops doing so. By using a closed driver you get all
>> the disadvantages of the open source model (yes there are some just that
>> normally the benefits outweigh them by far) without getting the gains.
>> Be very sure you want to do this before spending your hard earned money
>> on hardware that doesn't work without closed drivers.
>>
>
> I totally agree with you on this, that's why my question was about a
> good "Open Source" 3D card in the first place.  I want to try out 3D on
> Ingo's RT patch set and NVidia (because of the above that you mentioned)
> doesn't cut it anymore.  I've heard that the Radeon open source drive
> isn't too bad so I went with them. I don't need the best 3D, but I do
> need something.
>
> So you are right.  I've been a loyal NVidia customer for several years
> now, but since there is no alternative of a reliable 3D driver for them,
> I had to leave them to do what I needed. Now they risk me never going
> back if I find out that I like ATI better.
>
> -- Steve
>
>
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Joel Jaeggli  	       Unix Consulting 	       joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu
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