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Date:   Tue, 18 Jun 2019 18:46:42 -0400
From:   Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com>
To:     Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>
Cc:     Steve Grubb <sgrubb@redhat.com>, Tycho Andersen <tycho@tycho.ws>,
        nhorman@tuxdriver.com, linux-api@vger.kernel.org,
        containers@lists.linux-foundation.org,
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        Linux-Audit Mailing List <linux-audit@redhat.com>,
        netfilter-devel@vger.kernel.org, ebiederm@xmission.com,
        simo@redhat.com, netdev@vger.kernel.org,
        linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Eric Paris <eparis@parisplace.org>,
        "Serge E. Hallyn" <serge@hallyn.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH ghak90 V6 02/10] audit: add container id
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On 2019-06-18 18:12, Paul Moore wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 4:24 PM Steve Grubb <sgrubb@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Hello Paul,
> >
> > I am curious about this. We seemed to be close to getting this patch pulled
> > in. A lot of people are waiting for it. Can you summarize what you think the
> > patches need and who we think needs to do it? I'm lost. Does LXC people need
> > to propose something? Does Richard? Someone else? Who's got the ball?
> 
> [My apologies, this was lost in my inbox and I just not noticed it.]
> 
> Please don't top post on things sent to the mailing lists Steve, you
> know better than that.
> 
> Yes, things were moving along well, but upon talking with the LXC
> folks it appears we underestimated the importance of nested
> orchestrators.  I suspect my reply to Dan on the 4th covered your
> questions, if you didn't see it, here is the relevant snippet:
> 
> "To be clear, that's where we are at: we need to figure out what the
> kernel API would look like to support nested container orchestrators.
> My gut feeling is that this isn't going to be terribly complicated
> compared to the rest of the audit container ID work, but it is going
> to be some work.  We had a discussion about some potential solutions
> in the cover letter and it sounds like Richard is working up some
> ideas now, let's wait to see what that looks like."
> 
> ... and that is where we are at.  I'm looking forward to seeing
> Richard's next patchset.

I've rebased everything and am trying out some code to see if it will
address the concerns raised...  There will be more overhead on contid
write, and a tiny bit more for normal operations...

> > On Friday, May 31, 2019 8:44:45 AM EDT Paul Moore wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 8:21 PM Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > On 2019-05-30 19:26, Paul Moore wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 5:29 PM Tycho Andersen <tycho@tycho.ws> wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 03:29:32PM -0400, Paul Moore wrote:
> > > > > > > [REMINDER: It is an "*audit* container ID" and not a general
> > > > > > > "container ID" ;)  Smiley aside, I'm not kidding about that part.]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This sort of seems like a distinction without a difference;
> > > > > > presumably
> > > > > > audit is going to want to differentiate between everything that
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > in userspace call a container. So you'll have to support all this
> > > > > > insanity anyway, even if it's "not a container ID".
> > > > >
> > > > > That's not quite right.  Audit doesn't care about what a container is,
> > > > > or is not, it also doesn't care if the "audit container ID" actually
> > > > > matches the ID used by the container engine in userspace and I think
> > > > > that is a very important line to draw.  Audit is simply given a value
> > > > > which it calls the "audit container ID", it ensures that the value is
> > > > > inherited appropriately (e.g. children inherit their parent's audit
> > > > > container ID), and it uses the value in audit records to provide some
> > > > > additional context for log analysis.  The distinction isn't limited to
> > > > > the value itself, but also to how it is used; it is an "audit
> > > > > container ID" and not a "container ID" because this value is
> > > > > exclusively for use by the audit subsystem.  We are very intentionally
> > > > > not adding a generic container ID to the kernel.  If the kernel does
> > > > > ever grow a general purpose container ID we will be one of the first
> > > > > ones in line to make use of it, but we are not going to be the ones to
> > > > > generically add containers to the kernel.  Enough people already hate
> > > > > audit ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not interested in supporting/merging something that isn't
> > > > > > > useful;
> > > > > > > if this doesn't work for your use case then we need to figure out
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > would work.  It sounds like nested containers are much more common
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > the lxc world, can you elaborate a bit more on this?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as the possible solutions you mention above, I'm not sure I
> > > > > > > like the per-userns audit container IDs, I'd much rather just emit
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > necessary tracking information via the audit record stream and let
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > log analysis tools figure it out.  However, the bigger question is
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > to limit (re)setting the audit container ID when you are in a
> > > > > > > non-init
> > > > > > > userns.  For reasons already mentioned, using capable() is a non
> > > > > > > starter for everything but the initial userns, and using
> > > > > > > ns_capable()
> > > > > > > is equally poor as it essentially allows any userns the ability to
> > > > > > > munge it's audit container ID (obviously not good).  It appears we
> > > > > > > need a different method for controlling access to the audit
> > > > > > > container
> > > > > > > ID.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One option would be to make it a string, and have it be append only.
> > > > > > That should be safe with no checks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know there was a long thread about what type to make this thing. I
> > > > > > think you could accomplish the append-only-ness with a u64 if you had
> > > > > > some rule about only allowing setting lower order bits than those
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > are already set. With 4 bits for simplicity:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1100         # initial container id
> > > > > > 1100 -> 1011 # not allowed
> > > > > > 1100 -> 1101 # allowed, but now 1101 is set in stone since there are
> > > > > >
> > > > > >              # no lower order bits left
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are probably fancier ways to do it if you actually understand
> > > > > > math :)
> > > > >
> > > > >  ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Since userns nesting is limited to 32 levels (right now, IIRC), and
> > > > > > you have 64 bits, this might be reasonable. You could just teach
> > > > > > container engines to use the first say N bits for themselves, with a
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > bit for the barrier at the end.
> > > > >
> > > > > I like the creativity, but I worry that at some point these
> > > > > limitations are going to be raised (limits have a funny way of doing
> > > > > that over time) and we will be in trouble.  I say "trouble" because I
> > > > > want to be able to quickly do an audit container ID comparison and
> > > > > we're going to pay a penalty for these larger values (we'll need this
> > > > > when we add multiple auditd support and the requisite record routing).
> > > > >
> > > > > Thinking about this makes me also realize we probably need to think a
> > > > > bit longer about audit container ID conflicts between orchestrators.
> > > > > Right now we just take the value that is given to us by the
> > > > > orchestrator, but if we want to allow multiple container orchestrators
> > > > > to work without some form of cooperation in userspace (I think we have
> > > > > to assume the orchestrators will not talk to each other) we likely
> > > > > need to have some way to block reuse of an audit container ID.  We
> > > > > would either need to prevent the orchestrator from explicitly setting
> > > > > an audit container ID to a currently in use value, or instead generate
> > > > > the audit container ID in the kernel upon an event triggered by the
> > > > > orchestrator (e.g. a write to a /proc file).  I suspect we should
> > > > > start looking at the idr code, I think we will need to make use of it.
> > > >
> > > > My first reaction to using the IDR code is that once an idr is given up,
> > > > it can be reused.  I suppose we request IDRs and then never give them up
> > > > to avoid reuse...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure we ever what to guarantee that an audit container ID
> > > won't be reused during the lifetime of the system, it is a discrete
> > > integer after all.  What I think we do want to guarantee is that we
> > > won't allow an unintentional audit container ID collision between
> > > different orchestrators; if a single orchestrator wants to reuse an
> > > audit container ID then that is its choice.
> > >
> > > > I already had some ideas of preventing an existing ID from being reused,
> > >
> > > Cool.  I only made the idr suggestion since it is used for PIDs and
> > > solves a very similar problem.
> > >
> > > > but that makes the practice of some container engines injecting
> > > > processes into existing containers difficult if not impossible.
> > >
> > > Yes, we'll need some provision to indicate which orchestrator
> > > "controls" that particular audit container ID, and allow that
> > > orchestrator to reuse that particular audit container ID (until all
> > > those containers disappear and the audit container ID is given back to
> > > the pool).
> 
> paul moore

- RGB

--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635