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Date:   Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:22:33 +0800
From:   Tiwei Bie <tiwei.bie@intel.com>
To:     Jason Wang <jasowang@redhat.com>
Cc:     Alex Williamson <alex.williamson@redhat.com>, mst@redhat.com,
        maxime.coquelin@redhat.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
        kvm@vger.kernel.org, virtualization@lists.linux-foundation.org,
        netdev@vger.kernel.org, dan.daly@intel.com,
        cunming.liang@intel.com, zhihong.wang@intel.com, idos@mellanox.com,
        Rob Miller <rob.miller@broadcom.com>,
        Ariel Adam <aadam@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC v2] vhost: introduce mdev based hardware vhost backend
Message-ID: <20190710062233.GA16212@___>
References: <20190703115245.GA22374@___>
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 <b01b8e28-8d96-31dd-56f4-ca7793498c55@redhat.com>
 <20190704062134.GA21116@___>
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 <20190708061625.GA15936@___>
 <deae5ede-57e9-41e6-ea42-d84e07ca480a@redhat.com>
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On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:26:10AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> On 2019/7/9 下午2:33, Tiwei Bie wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 10:50:38AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > On 2019/7/8 下午2:16, Tiwei Bie wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Jul 05, 2019 at 08:49:46AM -0600, Alex Williamson wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 14:21:34 +0800
> > > > > Tiwei Bie <tiwei.bie@intel.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 12:31:48PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2019/7/3 下午9:08, Tiwei Bie wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:16:23PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 2019/7/3 下午7:52, Tiwei Bie wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 06:09:51PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2019/7/3 下午5:13, Tiwei Bie wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Details about this can be found here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/750770/
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > What's new in this version
> > > > > > > > > > > > ==========================
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > A new VFIO device type is introduced - vfio-vhost. This addressed
> > > > > > > > > > > > some comments from here:https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/cover/984763/
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Below is the updated device interface:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Currently, there are two regions of this device: 1) CONFIG_REGION
> > > > > > > > > > > > (VFIO_VHOST_CONFIG_REGION_INDEX), which can be used to setup the
> > > > > > > > > > > > device; 2) NOTIFY_REGION (VFIO_VHOST_NOTIFY_REGION_INDEX), which
> > > > > > > > > > > > can be used to notify the device.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. CONFIG_REGION
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > The region described by CONFIG_REGION is the main control interface.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Messages will be written to or read from this region.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > The message type is determined by the `request` field in message
> > > > > > > > > > > > header. The message size is encoded in the message header too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The message format looks like this:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > struct vhost_vfio_op {
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	__u64 request;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	__u32 flags;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	/* Flag values: */
> > > > > > > > > > > >       #define VHOST_VFIO_NEED_REPLY 0x1 /* Whether need reply */
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	__u32 size;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	union {
> > > > > > > > > > > > 		__u64 u64;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 		struct vhost_vring_state state;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 		struct vhost_vring_addr addr;
> > > > > > > > > > > > 	} payload;
> > > > > > > > > > > > };
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > The existing vhost-kernel ioctl cmds are reused as the message
> > > > > > > > > > > > requests in above structure.
> > > > > > > > > > > Still a comments like V1. What's the advantage of inventing a new protocol?
> > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to make it work in VFIO's way..
> > > > > > > > > > > I believe either of the following should be better:
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > - using vhost ioctl,  we can start from SET_VRING_KICK/SET_VRING_CALL and
> > > > > > > > > > > extend it with e.g notify region. The advantages is that all exist userspace
> > > > > > > > > > > program could be reused without modification (or minimal modification). And
> > > > > > > > > > > vhost API hides lots of details that is not necessary to be understood by
> > > > > > > > > > > application (e.g in the case of container).
> > > > > > > > > > Do you mean reusing vhost's ioctl on VFIO device fd directly,
> > > > > > > > > > or introducing another mdev driver (i.e. vhost_mdev instead of
> > > > > > > > > > using the existing vfio_mdev) for mdev device?
> > > > > > > > > Can we simply add them into ioctl of mdev_parent_ops?
> > > > > > > > Right, either way, these ioctls have to be and just need to be
> > > > > > > > added in the ioctl of the mdev_parent_ops. But another thing we
> > > > > > > > also need to consider is that which file descriptor the userspace
> > > > > > > > will do the ioctl() on. So I'm wondering do you mean let the
> > > > > > > > userspace do the ioctl() on the VFIO device fd of the mdev
> > > > > > > > device?
> > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > Got it! I'm not sure what's Alex opinion on this. If we all
> > > > > > agree with this, I can do it in this way.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Is there any other way btw?
> > > > > > Just a quick thought.. Maybe totally a bad idea. I was thinking
> > > > > > whether it would be odd to do non-VFIO's ioctls on VFIO's device
> > > > > > fd. So I was wondering whether it's possible to allow binding
> > > > > > another mdev driver (e.g. vhost_mdev) to the supported mdev
> > > > > > devices. The new mdev driver, vhost_mdev, can provide similar
> > > > > > ways to let userspace open the mdev device and do the vhost ioctls
> > > > > > on it. To distinguish with the vfio_mdev compatible mdev devices,
> > > > > > the device API of the new vhost_mdev compatible mdev devices
> > > > > > might be e.g. "vhost-net" for net?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So in VFIO case, the device will be for passthru directly. And
> > > > > > in VHOST case, the device can be used to accelerate the existing
> > > > > > virtualized devices.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > How do you think?
> > > > > VFIO really can't prevent vendor specific ioctls on the device file
> > > > > descriptor for mdevs, but a) we'd want to be sure the ioctl address
> > > > > space can't collide with ioctls we'd use for vfio defined purposes and
> > > > > b) maybe the VFIO user API isn't what you want in the first place if
> > > > > you intend to mostly/entirely ignore the defined ioctl set and replace
> > > > > them with your own.  In the case of the latter, you're also not getting
> > > > > the advantages of the existing VFIO userspace code, so why expose a
> > > > > VFIO device at all.
> > > > Yeah, I totally agree.
> > > 
> > > I guess the original idea is to reuse the VFIO DMA/IOMMU API for this. Then
> > > we have the chance to reuse vfio codes in qemu for dealing with e.g vIOMMU.
> > Yeah, you are right. We have several choices here:
> > 
> > #1. We expose a VFIO device, so we can reuse the VFIO container/group
> >      based DMA API and potentially reuse a lot of VFIO code in QEMU.
> > 
> >      But in this case, we have two choices for the VFIO device interface
> >      (i.e. the interface on top of VFIO device fd):
> > 
> >      A) we may invent a new vhost protocol (as demonstrated by the code
> >         in this RFC) on VFIO device fd to make it work in VFIO's way,
> >         i.e. regions and irqs.
> > 
> >      B) Or as you proposed, instead of inventing a new vhost protocol,
> >         we can reuse most existing vhost ioctls on the VFIO device fd
> >         directly. There should be no conflicts between the VFIO ioctls
> >         (type is 0x3B) and VHOST ioctls (type is 0xAF) currently.
> > 
> > #2. Instead of exposing a VFIO device, we may expose a VHOST device.
> >      And we will introduce a new mdev driver vhost-mdev to do this.
> >      It would be natural to reuse the existing kernel vhost interface
> >      (ioctls) on it as much as possible. But we will need to invent
> >      some APIs for DMA programming (reusing VHOST_SET_MEM_TABLE is a
> >      choice, but it's too heavy and doesn't support vIOMMU by itself).
> > 
> > I'm not sure which one is the best choice we all want..
> > Which one (#1/A, #1/B, or #2) would you prefer?
> 
> 
> #2 looks better. One concern is that we may end up with similar API as what
> VFIO does.

Yeah, that's a major concern. If it's true, is it something
that's not acceptable?

> And I do see some new RFC for VFIO to add more DMA API.

Is there any pointers?

> 
> Consider it was still in the stage of RFC, does it make sense if we try this
> way with some sample parents?

I think it makes sense.

> 
> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > > The mdev interface does provide a general interface for creating and
> > > > > managing virtual devices, vfio-mdev is just one driver on the mdev
> > > > > bus.  Parav (Mellanox) has been doing work on mdev-core to help clean
> > > > > out vfio-isms from the interface, aiui, with the intent of implementing
> > > > > another mdev bus driver for using the devices within the kernel.
> > > > Great to know this! I found below series after some searching:
> > > > 
> > > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/3/8/821
> > > > 
> > > > In above series, the new mlx5_core mdev driver will do the probe
> > > > by calling mlx5_get_core_dev() first on the parent device of the
> > > > mdev device. In vhost_mdev, maybe we can also keep track of all
> > > > the compatible mdev devices and use this info to do the probe.
> > > 
> > > I don't get why this is needed. My understanding is if we want to go this
> > > way, there're actually two parts. 1) Vhost mdev that implements the device
> > > managements and vhost ioctl. 2) Vhost it self, which can accept mdev fd as
> > > it backend through VHOST_NET_SET_BACKEND.
> > I think with vhost-mdev (or with vfio-mdev if we agree to do vhost
> > ioctls on vfio device fd directly), we don't need to open /dev/vhost-net
> > (and there is no VHOST_NET_SET_BACKEND needed) at all. Either way,
> > after getting the fd of the mdev, we just need to do vhost ioctls
> > on it directly.
> 
> 
> The reason I ask is that vhost-net is designed to not tied to any kind of
> backend. So it's better to have a single place to deal with ioctl. But it's
> not must.

I think in vhost-mdev, there is a chance for us to have a
unified interface in /dev for all vhost mediated devices
(not limited to net) in the system (similar to the case of
/dev/vfio/) instead of making it a backend of vhost-net.

For the code organization, it's possible for us to refactor
drivers/vhost/ and let it provide some APIs for parent devices
to handle generic vhost ioctls.

Thanks,
Tiwei

> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > But we also need a way to allow vfio_mdev driver to distinguish
> > > > and reject the incompatible mdev devices.
> > > 
> > > One issue for this series is that it doesn't consider DMA isolation at all.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > It
> > > > > seems like this vhost-mdev driver might be similar, using mdev but not
> > > > > necessarily vfio-mdev to expose devices.  Thanks,
> > > > Yeah, I also think so!
> > > 
> > > I've cced some driver developers for their inputs. I think we need a sample
> > > parent drivers in the next version for us to understand the full picture.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > Tiwei
> > > > 
> > > > > Alex