Message-ID: <43B204F1.1010409@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:22:25 +1100
From: Peter Williams <pwil3058@bigpond.net.au>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Randy.Dunlap" <rdunlap@xenotime.net>
CC: Michael Clark <michael@metaparadigm.com>, rlrevell@joe-job.com,
       s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk, rostedt@goodmis.org, jaco@kroon.co.za,
       linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, pavel@ucw.cz
Subject: Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume
 support (try 2)
References: <43AF7724.8090302@kroon.co.za>	<200512261535.09307.s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk>	<1135619641.8293.50.camel@mindpipe>	<200512262003.38552.s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk>	<1135630831.8293.89.camel@mindpipe>	<43B1D6C6.30300@metaparadigm.com>	<43B1E5C1.4050908@bigpond.net.au>	<43B1F203.6010401@metaparadigm.com> <20051227181239.3338b848.rdunlap@xenotime.net>
In-Reply-To: <20051227181239.3338b848.rdunlap@xenotime.net>
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Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:
> 
> 
>>Peter Williams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Michael Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
>>>>>>>>>ssh into
>>>>>>>>>my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
>>>>>>>>>and it
>>>>>>>>>handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
>>>>>>>>>"Normal"
>>>>>>>>>may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text files
>>>>>>>>>"as-is").
>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>
>>>>This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
>>>>thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping to the
>>>>inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch - at
>>>>least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
>>>>>>>>long time.
>>>>>>>>It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
>>>>>>>>are left
>>>>>>>>untouched.
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
>>>>>>>patches and
>>>>>>>even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
>>>>>>>serious
>>>>>>>usability/UI issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
>>>>>>>SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
>>>>>>>developers
>>>>>>>at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
>>>>>>AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
>>>>>>understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
>>>>>>composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
>>>>'Preformat' mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
>>>>>>of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
>>>>>>(defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping pastes).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
>>>>>>convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
>>>>>>probably much harder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
>>>>>"Preformat"
>>>>>mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat' before
>>>>pasting patches into Thunderbird.
>>>
>>>
>>>In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
>>>continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
>>>in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
>>>
>>
>>I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
>>X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
>>message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
>>Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> 
> 
> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.

Nor me.

> 
> 
>>Note pasting from gnome terminal does not work (as it doesn't retain
>>tabs) nor does xclip work with Thunderbird for some reason. I use a
>>selection in emacs and paste that.
> 
> 
> still not good.
> 
> ---
> ~Randy
> -
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-- 
Peter Williams                                   pwil3058@bigpond.net.au

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."
  -- Ambrose Bierce
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