Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751075AbVL2WlK (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:41:10 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751103AbVL2WlK (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:41:10 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([66.187.233.31]:41665 "EHLO mx1.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751073AbVL2WlI (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:41:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:41:03 -0500 From: Dave Jones To: Linus Torvalds Cc: Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: userspace breakage Message-ID: <20051229224103.GF12056@redhat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dave Jones , Linus Torvalds , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <1135798495.2935.29.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <20051228212313.GA4388@elte.hu> <20051228214845.GA7859@elte.hu> <20051228201150.b6cfca14.akpm@osdl.org> <20051229073259.GA20177@elte.hu> <20051229202852.GE12056@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2362 Lines: 49 On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:49:16PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote: > Umm.. Complain more. I upgrade kernels a lot more often than I upgrade > distros, and things don't break. They're not allowed to break, because I > refuse to upgrade my user programs just because I do kernel development. > But I'd only notice a small part of user space, so if people don't > complain, they break not because we don't care, but because we didn't even > know. > > So if you have a user program that breaks, _complain_. It's really not > supposed to happen outside of perhaps kernel module loaders etc things > that get really really chummy with kernel internals (and even that was > fixed: the modern way of loading modules isn't that chummy any more, so > hopefully we'll not need to break even module loaders again). > > If we change some /proc file thing, breakage is often totally > unintentional, and complaining is the right thing - people might not even > have realized it broke. > > At least _I_ take breakage reports seriously. If there are maintainers > that don't, complain to them. I'll back you up. Breaking user space simply > isn't acceptable without years of preparation and warning. The udev situation I mentioned has been known about for at least a month, probably longer. With old udev, we don't get /dev/input/event* created with 2.6.15rc. At some point in time it became defacto that certain things like udev, hotplug, alsa-lib, wireless-tools and a bunch of others have to have kept in lockstep with the kernel, and if it breaks, it's your fault for not upgrading your userspace. Seriously, I (and many others) have been complaining about this for months. (Pretty much every time the "Please can we have a 2.7" thread comes up). [note, that I actually prefer the 'new' approach to development in 2.6, what I object to is that at the same time we threw out the 'lets be careful about not breaking userspace' mantra.] Just a few years ago, if someone suggested breaking a userspace app in a kernel upgrade, they'd be crucified on linux-kernel, now it's 'the norm'). Dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/