Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751182AbVL3AqY (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:46:24 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751183AbVL3AqY (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:46:24 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([66.187.233.31]:48256 "EHLO mx1.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751182AbVL3AqX (ORCPT ); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:46:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:46:08 -0500 From: Dave Jones To: Ryan Anderson Cc: Linus Torvalds , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: userspace breakage Message-ID: <20051230004608.GA12822@redhat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dave Jones , Ryan Anderson , Linus Torvalds , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <20051228212313.GA4388@elte.hu> <20051228214845.GA7859@elte.hu> <20051228201150.b6cfca14.akpm@osdl.org> <20051229073259.GA20177@elte.hu> <20051229202852.GE12056@redhat.com> <20051229224103.GF12056@redhat.com> <43B48176.3080509@michonline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43B48176.3080509@michonline.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2540 Lines: 49 On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 07:38:14PM -0500, Ryan Anderson wrote: > The biggest complaint I've seen about udev isn't the fact that you > sometimes need to upgrade to use a new kernel, that's something that > people like Dave can handle via package dependencies. Sure, we *can* do that, though the problem is it introduces latency between the time I build a kernel, and time users can test it, as they have to sit and wait for the userspace packages to also arrive. There's a 2.6.15rc7 kernel that some Fedora Core 4 users could download and play with right now. I thought it'd be great to get some extra testing over the xmas holidays. Unfortunatly, due to the necessary udev upgrade, many users are turned off from testing by the inability to run X after installing it. It'll probably be some time in the new year when folks like our udev packager get back from vacation before we get a test package for FC4. The more people I'm reliant upon for having bits in place, the longer users have to wait to be able to test, and the longer we all wait for feedback. > The part of the udev situation that I've heard as a complaint (though I > haven't experienced myself) is that the new udev wasn't backwards > compatible with certain older kernels. I think the description I've > heard is that you need one udev for < 2.6.12, one for 2.6.12 - 2.6.14, > and now a new one for 2.6.15, and at least, jumping from < 2.6.12 to > 2.6.15 is pretty much guaranteed to be difficult to get right. (If the > kernel fails, you have a udev installed that won't work on the older > kernel correctly, apparently.) > > This, for what it's worth, is the same breakage that Dave seemed to be > most frustrated with during his OLS keynote, regarding ALSA versions, > and a few other things that caused breakage and the user space failed to > work correctly when the kernel was reverted. (I hope I'm not putting > words in your mouth, Dave). Yep, That is another problem. It's not uncommon for someone to upgrade to a new rebased kernel and its assorted userspace bits, then find out their wireless card broke, so they go back to the old working kernel, only to find the newer sound libraries misbehave on older kernels. (ALSA isn't the only problem area here, but it's an easy target). Dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/