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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([2601:646:8f00:18d9:d0fa:7a4b:764f:de48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d22sm3992817pfo.187.2019.12.11.11.15.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:15:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:15:18 -0800 From: Stanislav Fomichev To: Andrii Nakryiko Cc: Jakub Kicinski , Andrii Nakryiko , LKML , bpf , Networking , Alexei Starovoitov , Daniel Borkmann , Kernel Team Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 11/15] bpftool: add skeleton codegen command Message-ID: <20191211191518.GD3105713@mini-arch> References: <20191210011438.4182911-12-andriin@fb.com> <20191209175745.2d96a1f0@cakuba.netronome.com> <20191210100536.7a57d5e1@cakuba.netronome.com> <20191210214407.GA3105713@mini-arch> <20191210225900.GB3105713@mini-arch> <20191211172432.GC3105713@mini-arch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 12/11, Andrii Nakryiko wrote: > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 9:24 AM Stanislav Fomichev wrote: > > > > On 12/10, Andrii Nakryiko wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 2:59 PM Stanislav Fomichev wrote: > > > > > > > > On 12/10, Andrii Nakryiko wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 1:44 PM Stanislav Fomichev wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/10, Jakub Kicinski wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:11:31 -0800, Andrii Nakryiko wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 5:57 PM Jakub Kicinski wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 17:14:34 -0800, Andrii Nakryiko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > struct { > > > > > > > > > > /* used by libbpf's skeleton API */ > > > > > > > > > > struct bpf_object_skeleton *skeleton; > > > > > > > > > > /* bpf_object for libbpf APIs */ > > > > > > > > > > struct bpf_object *obj; > > > > > > > > > > struct { > > > > > > > > > > /* for every defined map in BPF object: */ > > > > > > > > > > struct bpf_map *; > > > > > > > > > > } maps; > > > > > > > > > > struct { > > > > > > > > > > /* for every program in BPF object: */ > > > > > > > > > > struct bpf_program *; > > > > > > > > > > } progs; > > > > > > > > > > struct { > > > > > > > > > > /* for every program in BPF object: */ > > > > > > > > > > struct bpf_link *; > > > > > > > > > > } links; > > > > > > > > > > /* for every present global data section: */ > > > > > > > > > > struct __ { > > > > > > > > > > /* memory layout of corresponding data section, > > > > > > > > > > * with every defined variable represented as a struct field > > > > > > > > > > * with exactly the same type, but without const/volatile > > > > > > > > > > * modifiers, e.g.: > > > > > > > > > > */ > > > > > > > > > > int *my_var_1; > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > } *; > > > > > > > > > > }; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I understand how this is useful, but perhaps the problem here > > > > > > > > > is that we're using C for everything, and simple programs for which > > > > > > > > > loading the ELF is majority of the code would be better of being > > > > > > > > > written in a dynamic language like python? Would it perhaps be a > > > > > > > > > better idea to work on some high-level language bindings than spend > > > > > > > > > time writing code gens and working around limitations of C? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this work prevents Python bindings and other improvements, is > > > > > > > > it? Patches, as always, are greatly appreciated ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This "do it yourself" shit is not really funny :/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll stop providing feedback on BPF patches if you guy keep saying > > > > > > > that :/ Maybe that's what you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This skeleton stuff is not just to save code, but in general to > > > > > > > > simplify and streamline working with BPF program from userspace side. > > > > > > > > Fortunately or not, but there are a lot of real-world applications > > > > > > > > written in C and C++ that could benefit from this, so this is still > > > > > > > > immensely useful. selftests/bpf themselves benefit a lot from this > > > > > > > > work, see few of the last patches in this series. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe those applications are written in C and C++ _because_ there > > > > > > > are no bindings for high level languages. I just wish BPF programming > > > > > > > was less weird and adding some funky codegen is not getting us closer > > > > > > > to that goal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience code gen is nothing more than a hack to work around > > > > > > > bad APIs, but experiences differ so that's not a solid argument. > > > > > > *nod* > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a nice set of C++ wrappers around libbpf internally, so we can do > > > > > > something like BpfMap and get a much better interface > > > > > > with type checking. Maybe we should focus on higher level languages instead? > > > > > > We are open to open-sourcing our C++ bits if you want to collaborate. > > > > > > > > > > Python/C++ bindings and API wrappers are an orthogonal concerns here. > > > > > I personally think it would be great to have both Python and C++ > > > > > specific API that uses libbpf under the cover. The only debatable > > > > > thing is the logistics: where the source code lives, how it's kept in > > > > > sync with libbpf, how we avoid crippling libbpf itself because > > > > > something is hard or inconvenient to adapt w/ Python, etc. > > > > > > > > [..] > > > > > The problem I'm trying to solve here is not really C-specific. I don't > > > > > think you can solve it without code generation for C++. How do you > > > > > "generate" BPF program-specific layout of .data, .bss, .rodata, etc > > > > > data sections in such a way, where it's type safe (to the degree that > > > > > language allows that, of course) and is not "stringly-based" API? This > > > > > skeleton stuff provides a natural, convenient and type-safe way to > > > > > work with global data from userspace pretty much at the same level of > > > > > performance and convenience, as from BPF side. How can you achieve > > > > > that w/ C++ without code generation? As for Python, sure you can do > > > > > dynamic lookups based on just the name of property/method, but amount > > > > > of overheads is not acceptable for all applications (and Python itself > > > > > is not acceptable for those applications). In addition to that, C is > > > > > the best way for other less popular languages (e.g., Rust) to leverage > > > > > libbpf without investing lots of effort in re-implementing libbpf in > > > > > Rust. > > > > I'd say that a libbpf API similar to dlopen/dlsym is a more > > > > straightforward thing to do. Have a way to "open" a section and > > > > a way to find a symbol in it. Yes, it's a string-based API, > > > > but there is nothing wrong with it. IMO, this is easier to > > > > use/understand and I suppose Python/C++ wrappers are trivial. > > > > > > Without digging through libbpf source code (or actually, look at code, > > > but don't run any test program), what's the name of the map > > > corresponding to .bss section, if object file is > > > some_bpf_object_file.o? If you got it right (congrats, btw, it took me > > > multiple attempts to memorize the pattern), how much time did you > > > spend looking it up? Now compare it to `skel->maps.bss`. Further, if > > > you use anonymous structs for your global vars, good luck maintaining > > > two copies of that: one for BPF side and one for userspace. > > As your average author of BPF programs I don't really care > > which section my symbol ends up into. Just give me an api > > to mmap all "global" sections (or a call per section which does all the > > naming magic inside) and lookup symbol by name; I can cast it to a proper > > type and set it. > > I'd like to not have to know about bss/rodata/data as well, but that's > how things are done for global variables. In skeleton we can try to > make an illusion like they are part of one big datasection/struct, but > that seems like a bit too much magic at this point. But then again, > one of the reasons I want this as an experimental feature, so that we > can actually judge from real experience how inconvenient some things > are, and not just based on "I think it would be ...". > > re: "Just give me ...". Following the spirit of "C is hard" from your > previous arguments, you already have that API: mmap() syscall. C > programmers have to be able to figure out the rest ;) But on the > serious note, this auto-generated code in skeleton actually addresses > all concerns (and more) that you mentioned: mmaping, knowing offsets, > knowing names and types, etc. And it doesn't preclude adding more > "conventional" additional APIs to do everything more dynamically, > based on string names. We have different understanding of what's difficult :-) To me, doing transparent data/rodata/bss mmap in bpf_object__load and then adding a single libbpf api call to lookup symbol by string name is simple (both from user perspective and from libbpf code complexity). Because in order to use the codegen I need to teach our build system to spit it out (which means I need to add bpftool to it and keep it updated/etc/etc). You can use it as an example of "real experience how inconvenient some things are". > > RE anonymous structs: maybe don't use them if you want to share the data > > between bpf and userspace? > > Alright. > > > > > > I never said there is anything wrong with current straightforward > > > libbpf API, but I also never said it's the easiest and most > > > user-friendly way to work with BPF either. So we'll have both > > > code-generated interface and existing API. Furthermore, they are > > > interoperable (you can pass skel->maps.whatever to any of the existing > > > libbpf APIs, same for progs, links, obj itself). But there isn't much > > > that can beat performance and usability of code-generated .data, .bss, > > > .rodata (and now .extern) layout. > > I haven't looked closely enough, but is there a libbpf api to get > > an offset of a variable? Suppose I have the following in bpf.c: > > > > int a; > > int b; > > > > Can I get an offset of 'b' in the .bss without manually parsing BTF? > > No there isn't right now. There isn't even an API to know that there > is such a variable called "b". Except for this skeleton, of course. > > > > > TBH, I don't buy the performance argument for these global maps. > > When you did the mmap patchset for the array, you said it yourself > > that it's about convenience and not performance. > > Yes, it's first and foremost about convenience, addressing exactly the > problems you mentioned above. But performance is critical for some use > cases, and nothing can beat memory-mapped view of BPF map for those. > Think about the case of frequently polling (or even atomically > exchanging) some stats from userspace, as one possible example. E.g., > like some map statistics (number of filled elements, p50 of whatever > of those elements, etc). I'm not sure what's there to buy: doing > syscall to get **entire** global data map contents vs just fetching > single integer from memory-mapped region, guess which one is cheaper? My understanding was that when you were talking about performance, you were talking about doing symbol offset lookup at runtime vs having a generated struct with fixed offsets; not about mmap vs old api with copy (this debate is settled since your patches are accepted). But to your original reply: you do understand that if you have multiple threads that write to this global data you have a bigger problem, right?