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From:   Marco Elver <elver@google.com>
Date:   Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:33:57 +0200
Message-ID: <CANpmjNOfXNE-Zh3MNP=-gmnhvKbsfUfTtWkyg_=VqTxS4nnptQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] WRITE_ONCE_INC() and friends
To:     "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
Cc:     David Laight <David.Laight@aculab.com>,
        Petko Manolov <petko.manolov@konsulko.com>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
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On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 01:12, Paul E. McKenney <paulmck@kernel.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:57:15AM +0200, Marco Elver wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 09:37:10PM +0000, David Laight wrote:
> > > > From: Petko Manolov
> > > > > Sent: 19 April 2020 19:30
> > > > >
> > > > > On 20-04-19 18:02:50, David Laight wrote:
> > > > > > From: Petko Manolov
> > > > > > > Sent: 19 April 2020 10:45
> > > > > > > Recently I started reading up on KCSAN and at some point I ran into stuff like:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WRITE_ONCE(ssp->srcu_lock_nesting[idx], ssp->srcu_lock_nesting[idx] + 1);
> > > > > > > WRITE_ONCE(p->mm->numa_scan_seq, READ_ONCE(p->mm->numa_scan_seq) + 1);
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If all the accesses use READ/WRITE_ONCE() why not just mark the structure
> > > > > > field 'volatile'?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a bit heavy.  I guess you've read this one:
> > > > >
> > > > >         https://lwn.net/Articles/233479/
> > > >
> > > > I remember reading something similar before.
> > > > I also remember a very old gcc (2.95?) that did a readback
> > > > after every volatile write on sparc (to flush the store buffer).
> > > > That broke everything.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect there is a lot more code that is attempting to be lockless
> > > > these days.
> > > > Ring buffers (one writer and one reader) are a typical example where
> > > > you don't need locks but do need to use a consistent value.
> > > >
> > > > Now you may also need ordering between accesses - which I think needs
> > > > more than volatile.
> > >
> > > In Petko's patch, all needed ordering is supplied by the fact that it
> > > is the same variable being read and written.  But yes, in many other
> > > cases, more ordering is required.
> > >
> > > > > And no, i am not sure all accesses are through READ/WRITE_ONCE().  If, for
> > > > > example, all others are from withing spin_lock/unlock pairs then we _may_ not
> > > > > need READ/WRITE_ONCE().
> > > >
> > > > The cost of volatile accesses is probably minimal unless the
> > > > code is written assuming the compiler will only access things once.
> > >
> > > And there are variables marked as volatile, for example, jiffies.
> > >
> > > But one downside of declaring variables volatile is that it can prevent
> > > KCSAN from spotting violations of the concurrency design for those
> > > variables.
> >
> > Note that, KCSAN currently treats volatiles not as special, except a
> > list of some known global volatiles (like jiffies). This means, that
> > KCSAN will tell us about data races involving unmarked volatiles (unless
> > they're in the list).
> >
> > As far as I can tell, this is what we want. At least according to LKMM.
> >
> > If, for whatever reason, volatiles should be treated differently, we'll
> > have to modify the compilers to emit different instrumentation for the
> > kernel.
>
> I stand corrected, then, thank you!
>
> In the current arrangement, declaring a variable volatile will cause
> KCSAN to generate lots of false positives.
>
> I don't currently have a strong feeling on changing the current situation
> with respect to volatile variables.  Is there a strong reason to change?
> The general view of the community, as you say, has been that you don't use
> the volatile keyword outside of exceptions such as jiffies, atomic_read(),
> atomic_set(), READ_ONCE(), WRITE_ONCE() and perhaps a few others.
>
> Thoughts?

I certainly agree, and also want to point out that checkpatch.pl
complains about volatile. We know using volatile has problems. KCSAN
is (along with checkpatch.pl) another tool that can warn us about such
problems (warning in case there is real concurrency). Another thing to
point out is that volatile is not portable, in case
READ_ONCE()/WRITE_ONCE()'s smp_load_barrier_depends() is not a noop.
So from what I see, there are strong reasons against changing the
situation for volatiles and KCSAN.

Thanks,
-- Marco