Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751373AbWCRQM3 (ORCPT ); Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:12:29 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751341AbWCRQM3 (ORCPT ); Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:12:29 -0500 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.205]:60574 "EHLO zproxy.gmail.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751415AbWCRQM2 convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:12:28 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=F70kvDR2buohvdbkUzFtYKVz2MtkG3xzXdtDDOYJ/Yn4GJoijlWL6YJunZ1U1AIMeoBAq5IuvsCpEZ6T+m8FhWZvgtJ+Me7K4/Fv+CaPPQppZ+I8O6I77UpIHp/CbjzgTp95oVnDIpKD0I33S9ZyNcM1FC288OZOL1JBbg6pBnE= Message-ID: <9a8748490603180812n1fda55bfq8909e118cc6dc3cc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:12:25 +0100 From: "Jesper Juhl" To: "Benjamin Bach" Subject: Re: Idea: Automatic binary driver compiling system Cc: "Arjan van de Ven" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <441C2CF6.1050607@overtag.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Disposition: inline References: <441AF93C.6040407@overtag.dk> <1142620509.25258.53.camel@mindpipe> <441C213A.3000404@overtag.dk> <1142694655.2889.22.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <441C2CF6.1050607@overtag.dk> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3247 Lines: 71 On 3/18/06, Benjamin Bach wrote: > Arjan van de Ven wrote: > > there are over a thousand open source drivers, and at most a handful > > binary ones. Please go do your math. > > > You're doing the wrong comparison. How many drivers are missing or > lacking in ability? And if you add to your handful of binary drivers > those thousands that exist for xp... > well, numbers do change. Also, most open source drivers aren't made by > the vendors themselves. > > We're doing subjective math here. It doesn't change the fact that Linux > would be better off with improved hardware support, right? > I strongly disagree. Linux will be better off with improved hardware support by Open Source drivers - yes. With improved hardware support by closed source, binary only drivers, Linux could very well end up being a *lot* worse off. Once companies have the abillity to easily create closed drivers it seems very likely that more of them will start withholding specs, making it impossible to create open drivers. This in turn will lead to less and less hardware supported by open drivers. The result of this will be more and more useless bugreports on LKML making it increasingly hard to maintain and improve the kernel. Users will report a bug that may or may not be in an open part of the kernel, but it will be impossible to tell due to all the binary only drivers for the users hardware she has loaded. Binary drivers also put the stability and security of the users system at the mercy of a commercial entity outside the users control. A binary blob loaded into the kernel could do *anything* to compromise the system or cause it to become unstable and noone would be able to tell if it's the driver or something else - Linux stability will suffer and users will in many cases blame Linux, not the driver vendors. There's also the issue of companies going out of business, taking their closed drivers with them. Now the hardware that used to be supported by Linux is no longer useful since noone can keep the driver updated. One could then opt to keep the binary interfaces static to keep old vendor drivers working, but then we'd quickly accumulate a bunch of backwards compatibility cruft that would bloat the kernel and turn it into an unmaintainable mess. For users there will be a short term bennefit of having more new and shiny toys work on Linux, but in the longer term it could easily destroy the usefulness of Linux as a free Operating System. So please, let's *not* do work to make binary only closed source drivers easier to make or maintain, it's counterproductive in the long run. It's a lot like peeing in your pants to try and stay warm in a blizzard. It may feel nice initially, but a little later on when your legs freeze up you'll be a lot worse off than you were initially. -- Jesper Juhl Don't top-post http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html Plain text mails only, please http://www.expita.com/nomime.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/