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[23.128.96.18]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id i19si13393452ejd.479.2020.07.06.09.08.05; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 09:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=23.128.96.18; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=ibm.com Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1729441AbgGFQHO (ORCPT + 99 others); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:07:14 -0400 Received: from mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com ([148.163.156.1]:7846 "EHLO mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1729293AbgGFQHN (ORCPT ); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:07:13 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0098394.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 066G4EY5065090; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:06:46 -0400 Received: from ppma06ams.nl.ibm.com (66.31.33a9.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com [169.51.49.102]) by mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 322p98g4w8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 06 Jul 2020 12:06:46 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (ppma06ams.nl.ibm.com [127.0.0.1]) by ppma06ams.nl.ibm.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 066G6hmv025524; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:43 GMT Received: from b06avi18878370.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (b06avi18878370.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.26.194]) by ppma06ams.nl.ibm.com with ESMTP id 322h1h2f95-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 06 Jul 2020 16:06:43 +0000 Received: from d06av22.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av22.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.105.58]) by b06avi18878370.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.14.9/8.14.9/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id 066G6ffj64946650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:41 GMT Received: from d06av22.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F794C04A; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from d06av22.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD4F4C040; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from linux.ibm.com (unknown [9.148.205.149]) by d06av22.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:06:38 +0300 From: Mike Rapoport To: Chris Mason Cc: Willy Tarreau , "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Chris Mason Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology Message-ID: <20200706160638.GG2999146@linux.ibm.com> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <20200705045505.GA2962@1wt.eu> <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235,18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-06_12:2020-07-06,2020-07-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2007060118 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Hi Chris, On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 12:45:34PM +0000, Chris Mason via Ksummit-discuss wrote: > On 5 Jul 2020, at 0:55, Willy Tarreau wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 01:02:51PM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: > >> +Non-inclusive terminology has that same distracting effect which is > >> why > >> +it is a style issue for Linux, it injures developer efficiency. > > > > I'm personally thinking that for a non-native speaker it's already > > difficult to find the best term to describe something, but having to > > apply an extra level of filtering on the found words to figure whether > > they are allowed by the language police is even more difficult. > > Since our discussions are public, we’ve always had to deal with > comments from people outside the community on a range of topics. But > inside the kernel, it’s just a group of developers trying to help each > other produce the best quality of code. We’ve got a long history > together and in general I think we’re pretty good at assuming good > intent. I don't think anybody doubts your intentions. But they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I had a "privilege" to live in the USSR and back there Newspeak was not a fiction but a reality. And despite the good intent, I have a really strong feeling that this could be a step in a wrong direction... > > *This* > > injures developers efficiency. What could improve developers > > efficiency > > is to take care of removing *all* idiomatic or cultural words then. > > For > > example I've been participating to projects using the term > > "blueprint", > > I didn't understand what that meant. It was once explained to me and > > given that it had no logical reason for being called this way, I now > > forgot. If we follow your reasoning, Such words should be banned for > > exactly the same reasons. Same for colors that probably don't mean > > anything to those born blind. > > > > For example if in my local culture we eat tomatoes at starters and > > apples for dessert, it could be convenient for me to use "tomato" and > > "apple" as list elements to name the pointers leading to the beginning > > and the end of the list, and it might sound obvious to many people, > > but > > not at all for many others. > > > > Maybe instead of providing an explicit list of a few words it should > > simply say that terms that take their roots in the non-technical world > > and whose meaning can only be understood based on history or local > > culture ought to be avoided, because *that* actually is the real > > root cause of the problem you're trying to address. > > I’d definitely agree that it’s a good goal to keep out non-technical > terms. Even though we already try, every subsystem has its own set of > patterns that reflect the most frequent contributors. > > -chris > _______________________________________________ > Ksummit-discuss mailing list > Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss -- Sincerely yours, Mike.