Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:2785:0:0:0:0 with SMTP id ia5csp1276447pxb; Sat, 9 Jan 2021 13:55:43 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUwDrfSfH0x3GHnmLpbtTBZH3nXbGpF1ngY55XH5tl7RgjjFWoeLjOyjDjNNHE8At5cxCJ X-Received: by 2002:a50:bb44:: with SMTP id y62mr9580892ede.103.1610229342924; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 13:55:42 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1610229342; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=G6wKHlOrad6ncnHnP1R+cnhArol0wgD0vmij5vMpGNjyIYEMSHJZTvKVxIhi32+KHF xefhfPXDmJ5Wfl1hkzLdLstOsHGrIswkUS8UC+v9tZXjQQGKm9ShcX5MtQx7X5sdLgtS 5BUk/3g3JWsJjZ5cTcPEEfFR9GA9YpOG5gxDDTNFLfuyWhUhBeeaaP3iDVUTeioqo/cF fDdnFbKB1ZXcWTYh2upzRIe/TuiWjx+mmVw3OYuhXsXVqa2h6j2OrJQeXlHa3c64N+UU ExkCmRH4u+j/Wx2S3IO0FhAZA0eyGGBQ1y8iej5yQTqRVuBeXJroNDEUqd2cyqfDdiZl tQ/A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-id:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=G19NSA/C5sj791idYUq9/llAqWb9T34a3w4mA8Eof/c=; b=YbwVVBwarzJpunMftwfts51ezl3Upl3bFxlxDaG7+QmTVlfmnKy3EM7lmmu96DIa+R VGNJm9YNoM/sIAPbJlJrbrpgwo+CEcEubE+A3NJuXTMKX6uE+63afWTj1lLGb0ksCkdo JcijuBfWssP2DJ9zaFf4SXh69gxYnr6cDwvdz3riK6w29peqME1SdC5PCRRGFqu2Yt0h /SLf9ct2L6c6P1J7CGgpU/6LFcPibDPEZkuxjtRrDLqxxFOVGDTQGG4LNh2p5Tg/96gq LPw3b6tXBjbPmR62hixcdQFK0b2dz5qOe/y0XI+6gtHxOHTWnAzY5YyexK67NRM+Zb2N e29w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@kernel.org header.s=k20201202 header.b=V9ld5dwK; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=kernel.org Return-Path: Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org. [23.128.96.18]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id c5si4860708ejz.259.2021.01.09.13.55.19; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 13:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=23.128.96.18; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@kernel.org header.s=k20201202 header.b=V9ld5dwK; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726367AbhAIVxw (ORCPT + 99 others); Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:53:52 -0500 Received: from mail.kernel.org ([198.145.29.99]:38920 "EHLO mail.kernel.org" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726068AbhAIVxv (ORCPT ); Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:53:51 -0500 Received: by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C63E423AC6 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2021 21:53:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1610229190; bh=HEqZj2HKCVGkWXS6z1aZpQYQPvyew/qWMqRtqfGnMKI=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=V9ld5dwKb15Agn8zL8BFKnLlI7txOwTrHoBcmlZ8nhzDfIk6CO3fq1nUA9qh4zTOZ cHynqOXjjfSSr7/OZ2sVD7WQsFs7D2Jg7WeskRLcdpuvDGJsw1Shd+fT06So5Fzr6y gUbN+47sbWiPYKz9NiD7lfkY2h1xb89fUp9IS3N0fw+sIzODarC1WTXA5t4oWzXGdi /H54sWGdjOuCp48/+gyRpAF0RBWC0+4nj0q3SY+dBfF5KzkBjm14ZbAlE2CmOE3C7Z sRBDr4o2GSUg0SJjF9bl2KHCCAeboGx+K/1jDM0pxqr+Uwlqiyq+HlZ4pe4nnvBW7c +hv1/H4ECbW5w== Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id s2so15841937oij.2 for ; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 13:53:10 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533uiB9cqfVLYuYkBua97apu3ieEvcpfORnPZeRm13lSluaBr18L snlAs4DHuDYA5eA5It0YXFIbiud+14AhDCLhbOQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:44d:: with SMTP id 74mr6300975oie.4.1610229190164; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 13:53:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210109055645.GA2009@1wt.eu> In-Reply-To: <20210109055645.GA2009@1wt.eu> From: Arnd Bergmann Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 22:52:53 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Old platforms: bring out your dead To: Willy Tarreau Cc: Linux ARM , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Krzysztof Adamski , Oleksij Rempel , Baruch Siach , Russell King - ARM Linux , Daniel Tang , =?UTF-8?Q?Uwe_Kleine=2DK=C3=B6nig?= , Jamie Iles , Barry Song , Viresh Kumar , Linus Walleij , Jonas Jensen , Marc Gonzalez , Hartley Sweeten , Lubomir Rintel , Neil Armstrong , Shawn Guo , Alex Elder , Alexander Shiyan , Koen Vandeputte , Hans Ulli Kroll , Vladimir Zapolskiy , Wei Xu , Steven Rostedt , Yoshinori Sato , Mark Salter , Michael Ellerman , Geert Uytterhoeven , Thomas Bogendoerfer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 6:56 AM Willy Tarreau wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 08, 2021 at 11:55:06PM +0100, Arnd Bergmann wrote: > > * 80486SX/DX: 80386 CPUs were dropped in 2012, and there are > > indications that 486 have no users either on recent kernels. > > There is still the Vortex86 family of SoCs, and the oldest of those were > > 486SX-class, but all the modern ones are 586-class. > > These also are the last generation of fanless x86 boards with 100% compatible > controllers, that some people have probably kept around because these don't > age much and have plenty of connectivity. I've used an old one a few times > to plug in an old floppy drive, ISA SCSI controllers to access an old tape > drive and a few such things. That doesn't mean that it's a good justification > not to remove them, what I rather mean is that *if* there is no benefit > in dropping them maybe we can keep them. On the other hand, good luck for > running a modern OS on these, when 16MB-32MB RAM was about the maximum that > was commonly found by then (though if people kept them around that's probably > because they were well equipped, like that 64MB 386DX I'm having :-)). I think there were 486s with up to 256MB, which would still qualify as barely usable for a minimal desktop, or as comfortable for a deeply embedded system. The main limit was apparently the cacheable RAM, which is limited by the amount of L2 cache -- you needed a rare 1MB of external L2-cache to have 256MB of cached RAM, while more common 256KB of cache would be good for 64MB. Vortex86SX has no FPU or L2 cache at all, but supports 256MB of DDR2. I checked some distros and found that aside from Debian inadvertently dropping i486 a long time ago, Slackware 14.2 (from 2016) also requires an i586 or higher now. Slackware 14.1 (from 2013) is still supported on i486 but ships with a Linux-3.10 kernel. archlinux32 is the only binary distro I could find that still officially supports i486, which in their case means anything below an i686 (cmov+mmx+sse). If it gets dropped, it might require some users to stay on LTS kernels after the distro moves to i586-only kernel, but as there are no long-term supported releases, there is also no need to coordinate the timing. As with the other older platforms, the main question to ask is: Are there users that are better off running a future LTS kernel on this hardware than the v5.10.y version or something older? Arnd