Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:38:00 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:37:50 -0500 Received: from mpdr0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net ([206.141.239.206]:18896 "EHLO mailhost.det.ameritech.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:37:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:41:22 -0500 (EST) From: volodya@mindspring.com Reply-To: volodya@mindspring.com To: Gerd Knorr cc: video4linux-list@redhat.com, livid-gatos@linuxvideo.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [V4L] Re: [RFC] alternative kernel multimedia API In-Reply-To: <20011105225201.A17854@bytesex.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Gerd Knorr wrote: > > > different kernel versions because a driver IMHO should be maintained for > > > both current stable and current hacker kernels. > > > > The change I was talking about has occured someplace between 2.4.2 and > > 2.4.9. On the other hand some interface did not change at all - for > > example serial devices /dev/ttySx. I do not see anything too special to > > video capture to warrant constanly changing interfaces. > > That was me in kernel 2.4.3 IIRC. Added one more argument to allow > drivers to ask for specific minor numbers (so you can give your devices > fixed minor numbers using insmod options). And this has _NOTHING_ to do > with the API visible to the applications. > It has to do with the API visible to the driver. > > > > Why this needs to be in the kernel? Simply ship a copy of the header > > > file with both application and driver or require the driver being > > > installed to build the application. Once you've worked out good, > > > working interfaces they can go into the kernel headers. You don't need > > > that for experimental stuff. > > > > And what am I to do if someone introduces the exact same ioctl number into > > the kernel ? I will get instant breakage. People will start saying: this > > does not work with kernele 2.4.(N+x). So, I'll change the number and will > > get bugreports of the kind "it does not work with 2.4.(N-1-y)". I do not > > want that. > > Such clashes shouldn't happen as v4l has ioctl number ranges for driver > private stuff which can be used for such tests and shouldn't cause > clashes with new, official ioctls. I did not know that - thanks. Where do I find notes on this ? > > Beside that I don't see why breaking applications is a problem for > _experimental_ interfaces. On the one hand you want to have the It is a problem because I want as many people as possible to try them. This is the only way to work out installation dependent bugs. There is a lot of variety out there: Redhat, Mandrake, Slackware, Suse, ix86, PowerPC, Alpha, Sparc.. Each is a little different. > flexibility to change interfaces easily to test them, on the other hand > you care alot about compatibility and stuff. You can't get both, I > don't see a way to do that without making either the drivers or the > applications (or both) very complex. Now here you are wrong. C have not changed in a while and you can still write any programs in it ;) As for complexity.. I don't mind 10000 line file if it is backed up by good algorithm. The good news is that with this approach we separate interface stuff from driver dependent stuff - and, hence, the most complex part can be easily tested. > > That is the price users will have to pay for playing with bleeding edge > stuff. > > > > becomes harder to debug because the failures are more subtile. With a > > > obsolete ioctl struct you likely get back -EINVAL, which is quite > > > obvious if the application does sane error checking. Or the application > > > doesn't even compile. Both are IMHO much better than some stange > > > > This is a separate issue.. Just keep in mind that there are plenty of > > applications that ignore return values from ioctl's. > > s/applications/broken applications/ The line here is even finer than between AI and clever algorithm ;) Vladimir Dergachev > > Gerd > > -- > Netscape is unable to locate the server localhost:8000. > Please check the server name and try again. > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/