Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 23.128.96.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=23.128.96.18;
Subject: Re: 5.10 LTS Kernel: 2 or 6 years?
To:     Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc:     Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
        Sasha Levin <sashal@kernel.org>,
        Florian Fainelli <f.fainelli@gmail.com>,
        BCM Kernel Feedback <bcm-kernel-feedback-list@broadcom.com>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
        Linux ARM <linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org>
References: <8cf503db-ac4c-a546-13c0-aac6da5c073b@broadcom.com>
 <YBBkplRxzzmPYKC+@kroah.com> <YCzknUTDytY8gRA8@kroah.com>
 <c731b65a-e118-9d37-79d1-d0face334fc4@broadcom.com>
 <20210218165104.GC2013@sasha-vm>
 <00b9e2fb-d818-58d6-edae-4dbd6aa814f7@gmail.com> <YC6ptKgsMh20tmu6@kroah.com>
 <20210218182050.GB15217@1wt.eu> <YC6zq3u2jciI2gyZ@kroah.com>
 <b283eaa5-028f-a3d0-42a1-5b11c48ffe91@broadcom.com>
 <20210218210037.GA16034@1wt.eu>
From:   Scott Branden <scott.branden@broadcom.com>
Message-ID: <2007a142-34e6-b59a-4c4a-1569ab33163b@broadcom.com>
Date:   Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:38:42 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20210218210037.GA16034@1wt.eu>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256;
        boundary="0000000000008783e305bba3ffb2"
Precedence: bulk

--0000000000008783e305bba3ffb2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Willy,

On 2021-02-18 1:00 p.m., Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 12:16:50PM -0800, Scott Branden wrote:
>> On 2021-02-18 10:36 a.m., Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:20:50PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 06:53:56PM +0100, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 09:21:13AM -0800, Florian Fainelli wrote:
>>>>>> As a company, we are most likely shooting ourselves in the foot by not
>>>>>> having a point of coordination with the Linux Foundation and key people
>>>>>> like you, Greg and other participants in the stable kernel.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does the LF have to do with this?
>>>>>
>>>>> We are here, on the mailing lists, working with everyone.  Just test the
>>>>> -rc releases we make and let us know if they work or not for you, it's
>>>>> not a lot of "coordination" needed at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise, if no one is saying that they are going to need these for 6
>>>>> years and are willing to use it in their project (i.e. and test it),
>>>>> there's no need for us to maintain it for that long, right?
>>>>
>>>> Greg, please remember I expressed I really need them for slightly more than
>>>> 3 years (say 3.5-4) :-) I'm fine with helping a bit more as time permits if
>>>> this saves me from having to take over these kernels after you, like in the
>>>> past, but I cannot engage on the regularity of my availability.
>>>
>>> Ok, great!
>>>
>>> That's one person/company saying they can help out (along with what CIP
>>> has been stating.)
>>>
>>> What about others?  Broadcom started this conversation, odd that they
>>> don't seem to want to help out :)
>> Greg, I'm sorry but I'm not in a position to provide such a commitment.
> 
> Are you at least in a position to defend that ? There are necessarily
> some people in your company who understand the benefits of using open
> source provdided for free by others and who understand that devoting
> a few people's time to this task is extremely cheap compared to the
> amount of work required by having to do it entirely yourself for a
> lower quality.
> 
>> My original question arose because the 5.10 kernel is declared as 2 years LTS
>> while older LTS kernels are now 6 years.
> (...)
>> If all LTS kernels were declared as 3.5-4 years as Willy commented this would
>> solve a few issues. 6 year LTS kernels would only have a maximum 1 year
>> lifespan over the latest declared LTS kernel. Also, many products take a year
>> or more to develop, there isn't any life left in an LTS kernel if it is only
>> 2 years.
> 
> We all have the same problem regarding this but how do you want Greg to
> engage into such a task by himself if he's not certain he can count on
> others to help ? The few of us having worked on extended kernels know
> that there's a limit around 2.5 years beyond which backports become much
> harder to perform and to test. Doing it every year would result in 6 LTS
> kernels to maintain in addition to the last 1-2 stable ones. That becomes
> a huge amount of work! I even think that having one LTS kernel every 2
> years but maintained one extra year (e.g. 5 vs 4 in my case) would reduce
> the effort.
> 
>> After 1-3 years of kernel age the relevant parties that want to invest and
>> care about supporting specific kernel versions longer should become apparent
>> and could commit to longer support.
> 
> But that's exactly what's currently being done. Greg initially commits
> to 2 years hoping to get some help to pursue this longer, and this causes
> trouble to some of us not being certain upfront whether or not we're choosing
> the right kernel. So only the solution I'm seeing is for Greg to know
> early who jumps in so that those of us without the power or skill to
> entirely maintain a kernel by themselves know early which version to
> choose. Quite frankly if we ship an LTS kernel in a product, the least
> we can do is to give back a little bit to make sure the situation remains
> durable.
> 
> As such even if you are not in a position to provide such a commitment,
> I'd appreciate it if you would bring these arguments to those who are in
> such a position, so that I don't end up as one of the too few ones having
> to share a significant part of that task to make sure this valuable kernel
> continues to exist.
Thanks - will forward such info as necessary.
> 
> Thanks,
> Willy
> 


--0000000000008783e305bba3ffb2
Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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--0000000000008783e305bba3ffb2--