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From:   Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= <toke@redhat.com>
To:     Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>
Cc:     Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
        Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi <memxor@gmail.com>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
        bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@redhat.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
        Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@kernel.org>,
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Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 3/5] libbpf: add low level TC-BPF API
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Date:   Thu, 15 Apr 2021 00:51:37 +0200
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Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 3:58 AM Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen <toke@re=
dhat.com> wrote:
>>
>> Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 AM Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen <toke@=
redhat.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:47 AM Alexei Starovoitov
>> >> > <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 12:38:06AM +0530, Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi =
wrote:
>> >> >> > On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 12:02:14AM IST, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>> >> >> > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 8:27 AM Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi <memxor=
@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > > [...]
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > All of these things are messy because of tc legacy. bpf tried =
to follow tc style
>> >> >> > > with cls and act distinction and it didn't quite work. cls with
>> >> >> > > direct-action is the only
>> >> >> > > thing that became mainstream while tc style attach wasn't real=
ly addressed.
>> >> >> > > There were several incidents where tc had tens of thousands of=
 progs attached
>> >> >> > > because of this attach/query/index weirdness described above.
>> >> >> > > I think the only way to address this properly is to introduce =
bpf_link style of
>> >> >> > > attaching to tc. Such bpf_link would support ingress/egress on=
ly.
>> >> >> > > direction-action will be implied. There won't be any index and=
 query
>> >> >> > > will be obvious.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Note that we already have bpf_link support working (without supp=
ort for pinning
>> >> >> > ofcourse) in a limited way. The ifindex, protocol, parent_id, pr=
iority, handle,
>> >> >> > chain_index tuple uniquely identifies a filter, so we stash this=
 in the bpf_link
>> >> >> > and are able to operate on the exact filter during release.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Except they're not unique. The library can stash them, but somethi=
ng else
>> >> >> doing detach via iproute2 or their own netlink calls will detach t=
he prog.
>> >> >> This other app can attach to the same spot a different prog and now
>> >> >> bpf_link__destroy will be detaching somebody else prog.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > > So I would like to propose to take this patch set a step furth=
er from
>> >> >> > > what Daniel said:
>> >> >> > > int bpf_tc_attach(prog_fd, ifindex, {INGRESS,EGRESS}):
>> >> >> > > and make this proposed api to return FD.
>> >> >> > > To detach from tc ingress/egress just close(fd).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You mean adding an fd-based TC API to the kernel?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> yes.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm totally for bpf_link-based TC attachment.
>> >> >
>> >> > But I think *also* having "legacy" netlink-based APIs will allow
>> >> > applications to handle older kernels in a much nicer way without ex=
tra
>> >> > dependency on iproute2. We have a similar situation with kprobe, wh=
ere
>> >> > currently libbpf only supports "modern" fd-based attachment, but us=
ers
>> >> > periodically ask questions and struggle to figure out issues on old=
er
>> >> > kernels that don't support new APIs.
>> >>
>> >> +1; I am OK with adding a new bpf_link-based way to attach TC program=
s,
>> >> but we still need to support the netlink API in libbpf.
>> >>
>> >> > So I think we'd have to support legacy TC APIs, but I agree with
>> >> > Alexei and Daniel that we should keep it to the simplest and most
>> >> > straightforward API of supporting direction-action attachments and
>> >> > setting up qdisc transparently (if I'm getting all the terminology
>> >> > right, after reading Quentin's blog post). That coincidentally shou=
ld
>> >> > probably match how bpf_link-based TC API will look like, so all that
>> >> > can be abstracted behind a single bpf_link__attach_tc() API as well,
>> >> > right? That's the plan for dealing with kprobe right now, btw. Libb=
pf
>> >> > will detect the best available API and transparently fall back (may=
be
>> >> > with some warning for awareness, due to inherent downsides of legacy
>> >> > APIs: no auto-cleanup being the most prominent one).
>> >>
>> >> Yup, SGTM: Expose both in the low-level API (in bpf.c), and make the
>> >> high-level API auto-detect. That way users can also still use the
>> >> netlink attach function if they don't want the fd-based auto-close
>> >> behaviour of bpf_link.
>> >
>> > So I thought a bit more about this, and it feels like the right move
>> > would be to expose only higher-level TC BPF API behind bpf_link. It
>> > will keep the API complexity and amount of APIs that libbpf will have
>> > to support to the minimum, and will keep the API itself simple:
>> > direct-attach with the minimum amount of input arguments. By not
>> > exposing low-level APIs we also table the whole bpf_tc_cls_attach_id
>> > design discussion, as we now can keep as much info as needed inside
>> > bpf_link_tc (which will embed bpf_link internally as well) to support
>> > detachment and possibly some additional querying, if needed.
>>
>> But then there would be no way for the caller to explicitly select a
>> mechanism? I.e., if I write a BPF program using this mechanism targeting
>> a 5.12 kernel, I'll get netlink attachment, which can stick around when
>> I do bpf_link__disconnect(). But then if the kernel gets upgraded to
>> support bpf_link for TC programs I'll suddenly transparently get
>> bpf_link and the attachments will go away unless I pin them. This
>> seems... less than ideal?
>
> That's what we are doing with bpf_program__attach_kprobe(), though.
> And so far I've only seen people (privately) saying how good it would
> be to have bpf_link-based TC APIs, doesn't seem like anyone with a
> realistic use case prefers the current APIs. So I suspect it's not
> going to be a problem in practice. But at least I'd start there and
> see how people are using it and if they need anything else.

*sigh* - I really wish you would stop arbitrarily declaring your own use
cases "realistic" and mine (implied) "unrealistic". Makes it really hard
to have a productive discussion...

>> If we expose the low-level API I can elect to just use this if I know I
>> want netlink behaviour, but if bpf_program__attach_tc() is the only API
>> available it would at least need a flag to enforce one mode or the other
>> (I can see someone wanting to enforce kernel bpf_link semantics as well,
>> so a flag for either mode seems reasonable?).
>
> Sophisticated enough users can also do feature detection to know if
> it's going to work or not.

Sure, but that won't help if there's no API to pick the attach mode they
want.

> There are many ways to skin this cat. I'd prioritize bpf_link-based TC
> APIs to be added with legacy TC API as a fallback.

I'm fine with adding that; I just want the functions implementing the TC
API to also be exported so users can use those if they prefer...

-Toke