Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1031634AbXEAJon (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 05:44:43 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1031635AbXEAJon (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 05:44:43 -0400 Received: from 1wt.eu ([62.212.114.60]:2445 "EHLO 1wt.eu" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1031634AbXEAJom (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 05:44:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:44:00 +0200 From: Willy Tarreau To: "Robert P. J. Day" Cc: Christoph Hellwig , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-pcmcia@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: pcmcia ioctl removal Message-ID: <20070501094400.GX943@1wt.eu> References: <20070430162007.ad46e153.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <20070501084623.GB14364@infradead.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3003 Lines: 73 On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 05:16:13AM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: > On Tue, 1 May 2007, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > > > pcmcia-delete-obsolete-pcmcia_ioctl-feature.patch > > > > ... > > > > > Dominik is busy. Will probably re-review and send these direct to Linus. > > > > The patch above is the removal of cardmgr support. While I'd love > > to see this cruft gone it definitively needs maintainer judgement on > > whether they time has come that no one relies on cardmgr anymore. > > since i was the one who submitted the original patch to remove that > stuff, let me make an observation. > > when i submitted a patch to remove, for instance, the traffic shaper > since it's clearly obsolete, i was told -- in no uncertain terms -- > that that couldn't be done since there had been no warning about its > impending removal. > > fair enough, i can accept that. > > on the other hand, the features removal file contains the following: > > ... > What: PCMCIA control ioctl (needed for pcmcia-cs [cardmgr, cardctl]) > When: November 2005 > ... > > in other words, the PCMCIA ioctl feature *has* been listed as obsolete > for quite some time, and is already a *year and a half* overdue for > removal. > > in short, it's annoying to take the position that stuff can't be > deleted without warning, then turn around and be reluctant to remove > stuff for which *more than ample warning* has already been given. > doing that just makes a joke of the features removal file, and makes > you wonder what its purpose is in the first place. > > a little consistency would be nice here, don't you think? No, it just shows how useless this file is. What is needed is a big warning during usage, not a file that nobody reads. Facts are : - 90% of people here do not even know that this file exists - 80% of the people who know about it do not consult it on a regular basis - 80% of those who consult it on a regular basis are not concerned - 75% of statistics are invented => only 20% of 20% of 10% of those who read LKML know that one feature they are concerned about will soon be removed = 0.4% of LKML readers. If you put a warning in kernel messages (as I've seen for a long time about tcpdump using obsolete AF_PACKET), close to 100% of the users of the obsolete code who are likely to change their kernels will notice it. I'm sorry for your patch which may get delayed a lot. You would spend fewer time stuffing warnings in areas affected by scheduled removal. BTW, I'm not even against the end of cardmgr support, it's just that I don't know what the alternative is, and I suspect that many users do not either. A big warning would have brought them to google who would have provided them with suggestions for alternatives. Willy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/