Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1161712AbXEAK2k (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 06:28:40 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1161709AbXEAK2k (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 06:28:40 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]:10853 "EHLO ug-out-1314.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1161686AbXEAK2g (ORCPT ); Tue, 1 May 2007 06:28:36 -0400 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jzfL1ef0lVdttHDpPLxLLXTs6q/OD5yt0rs62pZwTSzm8qnpDNQPdwcQucivugfWXHVmiuXoFM9ErnG53ldwXpyrOefBuBPHLrigf1+O2DOz3gGGIn6dEgLX5gGANjwdMRtmDD4Wb330X+fzXRdNCwC7ivtzdhQ3yXXlc2G+BQc= Message-ID: <463715E8.1060903@googlemail.com> Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 12:26:48 +0200 From: Gabriel C User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Willy Tarreau CC: "Robert P. J. Day" , Christoph Hellwig , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-pcmcia@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: pcmcia ioctl removal References: <20070430162007.ad46e153.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <20070501084623.GB14364@infradead.org> <20070501094400.GX943@1wt.eu> In-Reply-To: <20070501094400.GX943@1wt.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3551 Lines: 103 Willy Tarreau wrote: > On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 05:16:13AM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: > >> On Tue, 1 May 2007, Christoph Hellwig wrote: >> >> >>>> pcmcia-delete-obsolete-pcmcia_ioctl-feature.patch >>>> >>> ... >>> >>> >>>> Dominik is busy. Will probably re-review and send these direct to Linus. >>>> >>> The patch above is the removal of cardmgr support. While I'd love >>> to see this cruft gone it definitively needs maintainer judgement on >>> whether they time has come that no one relies on cardmgr anymore. >>> >> since i was the one who submitted the original patch to remove that >> stuff, let me make an observation. >> >> when i submitted a patch to remove, for instance, the traffic shaper >> since it's clearly obsolete, i was told -- in no uncertain terms -- >> that that couldn't be done since there had been no warning about its >> impending removal. >> >> fair enough, i can accept that. >> >> on the other hand, the features removal file contains the following: >> >> ... >> What: PCMCIA control ioctl (needed for pcmcia-cs [cardmgr, cardctl]) >> When: November 2005 >> ... >> >> in other words, the PCMCIA ioctl feature *has* been listed as obsolete >> for quite some time, and is already a *year and a half* overdue for >> removal. >> >> in short, it's annoying to take the position that stuff can't be >> deleted without warning, then turn around and be reluctant to remove >> stuff for which *more than ample warning* has already been given. >> doing that just makes a joke of the features removal file, and makes >> you wonder what its purpose is in the first place. >> >> a little consistency would be nice here, don't you think? >> > > No, it just shows how useless this file is. What is needed is a big > warning during usage, not a file that nobody reads. Facts are : > > - 90% of people here do not even know that this file exists > - 80% of the people who know about it do not consult it on a regular basis > - 80% of those who consult it on a regular basis are not concerned > - 75% of statistics are invented > > => only 20% of 20% of 10% of those who read LKML know that one feature > they are concerned about will soon be removed = 0.4% of LKML readers. > > If you put a warning in kernel messages (as I've seen for a long time > about tcpdump using obsolete AF_PACKET), close to 100% of the users > of the obsolete code who are likely to change their kernels will notice > it. > > Hmm ? There is already a fat warning in dmesg for a long time now. snip ... pcmcia: Detected deprecated PCMCIA ioctl usage from process: discover. pcmcia: This interface will soon be removed from the kernel; please expect breakage unless you upgrade to new tools. pcmcia: see http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/kernel/pcmcia/pcmcia.html for details. ... > I'm sorry for your patch which may get delayed a lot. You would spend > fewer time stuffing warnings in areas affected by scheduled removal. > > BTW, I'm not even against the end of cardmgr support, it's just that > I don't know what the alternative is, and I suspect that many users > do not either. A big warning would have brought them to google who > would have provided them with suggestions for alternatives. > > Willy > > > Regards, Gabriel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/