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From:   Wei Xu <weixugc@google.com>
Date:   Wed, 11 May 2022 23:24:47 -0700
Message-ID: <CAAPL-u8=n4V-WYgZx4GJpxD17yFuyrz5N07W0uyLmHxn_4zzCw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RFC: Memory Tiering Kernel Interfaces
To:     "ying.huang@intel.com" <ying.huang@intel.com>
Cc:     "Aneesh Kumar K.V" <aneesh.kumar@linux.ibm.com>,
        Alistair Popple <apopple@nvidia.com>,
        Yang Shi <shy828301@gmail.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
        Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
        Linux MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
        Greg Thelen <gthelen@google.com>,
        Jagdish Gediya <jvgediya@linux.ibm.com>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
        Davidlohr Bueso <dave@stgolabs.net>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@kernel.org>,
        Baolin Wang <baolin.wang@linux.alibaba.com>,
        Brice Goglin <brice.goglin@gmail.com>,
        Feng Tang <feng.tang@intel.com>,
        Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@huawei.com>,
        Tim Chen <tim.c.chen@linux.intel.com>
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Precedence: bulk

On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 8:14 PM ying.huang@intel.com
<ying.huang@intel.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 19:39 -0700, Wei Xu wrote:
> > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 6:42 PM ying.huang@intel.com
> > <ying.huang@intel.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 10:07 -0700, Wei Xu wrote:
> > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 12:49 AM ying.huang@intel.com
> > > > <ying.huang@intel.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 2022-05-10 at 22:30 -0700, Wei Xu wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:38 AM Aneesh Kumar K.V
> > > > > > <aneesh.kumar@linux.ibm.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alistair Popple <apopple@nvidia.com> writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wei Xu <weixugc@google.com> writes:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 5:19 PM Alistair Popple <apopple@nvidia.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Wei Xu <weixugc@google.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tiering Hierarchy Initialization
> > > > > > > > > > > > > `=============================='
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > By default, all memory nodes are in the top tier (N_TOPTIER_MEMORY).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > A device driver can remove its memory nodes from the top tier, e.g.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a dax driver can remove PMEM nodes from the top tier.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > With the topology built by firmware we should not need this.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree that in an ideal world the hierarchy should be built by firmware based
> > > > > > > > > > on something like the HMAT. But I also think being able to override this will be
> > > > > > > > > > useful in getting there. Therefore a way of overriding the generated hierarchy
> > > > > > > > > > would be good, either via sysfs or kernel boot parameter if we don't want to
> > > > > > > > > > commit to a particular user interface now.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > However I'm less sure letting device-drivers override this is a good idea. How
> > > > > > > > > > for example would a GPU driver make sure it's node is in the top tier? By moving
> > > > > > > > > > every node that the driver does not know about out of N_TOPTIER_MEMORY? That
> > > > > > > > > > could get messy if say there were two drivers both of which wanted their node to
> > > > > > > > > > be in the top tier.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The suggestion is to allow a device driver to opt out its memory
> > > > > > > > > devices from the top-tier, not the other way around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So how would demotion work in the case of accelerators then? In that
> > > > > > > > case we would want GPU memory to demote to DRAM, but that won't happen
> > > > > > > > if both DRAM and GPU memory are in N_TOPTIER_MEMORY and it seems the
> > > > > > > > only override available with this proposal would move GPU memory into a
> > > > > > > > lower tier, which is the opposite of what's needed there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How about we do 3 tiers now. dax kmem devices can be registered to
> > > > > > > tier 3. By default all numa nodes can be registered at tier 2 and HBM or
> > > > > > > GPU can be enabled to register at tier 1. ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This makes sense.  I will send an updated RFC based on the discussions so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are these tier number fixed?  If so, it appears strange that the
> > > > > smallest tier number is 0 on some machines, but 1 on some other
> > > > > machines.
> > > >
> > > > When the kernel is configured to allow 3 tiers, we can always show all
> > > > the 3 tiers. It is just that some tiers (e.g. tier 0) may be empty on
> > > > some machines.
> > >
> > > I still think that it's better to have no empty tiers for auto-generated
> > > memory tiers by kernel.  Yes, the tier number will be not absolutely
> > > stable, but that only happens during system bootup in practice, so it's
> > > not a big issue IMHO.
> >
> > It should not be hard to hide empty tiers (e.g. tier-0) if we prefer.
> > But even if tier-0 is empty, we should still keep this tier in the
> > kernel and not move DRAM nodes into this tier.  One reason is that a
> > HBM node might be hot-added into tier-0 at a later time.
> >
>
> Yes.  The in-kernel representation and the user space interface could be
> different.
>
> I have thought something like below.  We always make the main memory
> (DRAM here, CPU local) as tier 0.  Then the slower memory will be
> positive, tier 1, 2, 3, ..., and the faster memory will be negative,
> tier -1, -2, -3, ....  Then, GPU driver can regesiter its memory as tier
> -1.  And the tier number could be more stable.  But I'm not sure whether
> users will be happy with negtive tier number.
>
> > > And, I still think it's better to make only N-1 tiers writable for
> > > totally N tiers (or even readable).  Considering "tier0" is written, how
> > > to deal with nodes in "tier0" before but not after writing?  One
> > > possible way is to put them into "tierN".  And during a user customize
> > > the tiers, the union of "N tiers" may be not complete.
> >
> > The sysfs interfaces that I have in mind now are:
> >
> > * /sys/devices/system/memtier/memtierN/nodelist (N=0, 1, 2)
> >
> > This is read-only to list the memory nodes for a specific tier.
> >
> > * /sys/devices/system/node/nodeN/memtier. (N=0, 1, ...,)
> >
> > This is a read-write interface. When written, the kernel moves the
> > node into the user-specified tier.  No other nodes are affected.
> >
> > This interface should be able to avoid the above issue.
>
> Yes.  This works too.

FYI, I have just sent out an updated RFC with the above sysfs interfaces.

> Best Regards,
> Huang, Ying
>
> > > > BTW, the userspace should not assume a specific meaning of a
> > > > particular tier id because it can change depending on the number of
> > > > tiers that the kernel is configured with.  For example, the userspace
> > > > should not assume that tier-2 always means PMEM nodes.  In a system
> > > > with 4 tiers, PMEM nodes may be in tier-3, not tier-2.
> > >
> > > Yes.  This sounds good.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > Huang, Ying
> > >
>
>