Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1758079AbXFMO3K (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:29:10 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1756795AbXFMO26 (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:28:58 -0400 Received: from smtpgw02.netonehosting.com ([193.192.98.26]:48864 "EHLO smtpgw02.netonehosting.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1756060AbXFMO25 (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:28:57 -0400 Message-ID: <466FFF23.5050105@netone.net.tr> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:28:51 +0300 From: Tarkan Erimer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linus Torvalds CC: Alexandre Oliva , Ingo Molnar , debian developer , "david@lang.hm" , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , Greg KH Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 References: <20070609071231.GL2649@lug-owl.de> <466BB9B0.5030908@netone.net.tr> <466BCBBC.90305@netone.net.tr> <466C0901.4000405@netone.net.tr> <466D0A12.5030607@netone.net.tr> <20070611090348.GA18894@elte.hu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-9; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETONE-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-NETONE-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NETONE-MailScanner-From: tarkan@netone.net.tr Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5784 Lines: 121 Hi Linus, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Alexandre Oliva wrote: > >> Per this reasoning, Sun wouldn't be waiting for GPLv3, and it would >> have already released the OpenSolaris kernel under GPLv2, would it >> not? ;-) >> > > Umm. You are making the fundamental mistake of thinking that Sun is in > this to actually further some open-source agenda. > > Here's a cynical prediction (but backed up by past behaviour of Sun): > > - first off: they may be talking a lot more than they are or ever will > be doing. How many announcements about Sun and Linux have you seen over > the years? And how much of that has actually happened? > > - They may like open source, but Linux _has_ hurt them in the > marketplace. A lot. > > They almost used to own the chip design market, and it took quite a > long time before the big EDA vendors ported to Linux (and x86-64 in > particular). But when they did, their chip design market just basically > disappeared: sparc performance is so horribly bad (especially on a > workstation kind of setup), that to do chip design on them is just > idiotic. Which is not to say that there aren't holdouts, but let's face > it, for a lot of things, Solaris is simply the wrong choice these days. > > Ergo: they sure as hell don't want to help Linux. Which is fine. > Competition is good. > > - So they want to use Linux resources (_especially_ drivers), but they do > *not* want to give anything back (especially ZFS, which seems to be one > of their very very few bright spots). > > - Ergo: they'll not be releasing ZFS and the other things that people are > drooling about in a way that lets Linux use them on an equal footing. I > can pretty much guarantee that. They don't like competition on that > level. They'd *much* rather take our drivers and _not_ give anythign > back, or give back the stuff that doesn't matter (like core Solaris: > who are you kidding - Linux code is _better_). > > Completely agreed :-) > End result: > > - they'll talk about it. They not only drool after our drivers, they > drool after all the _people_ who write drivers. They'd love to get > kernel developers from Linux, they see that we have a huge amount of > really talented people. So they want to talk things up, and the more > "open source" they can position themselves, the better. > > Definitely. They already began to pull some people like Ian Murdock. And I'm really very disappointed of this move,Ian did. Especially, such a person who has very good reputation and high profile in the Linux Community. He immediately shut down his company (also leaved Linux-Foundation) and joined to sun. After joining, he made statements like "How to make Solaris more like Linux ?" etc. Like a 40 years employee at Sun. Another interesting thing is the timing of this hiring. So, this situation is a good example of it. > - They may release the uninteresting parts under some fine license. See > the OpenSolaris stuff - instead of being blinded by the code they _did_ > release under an open source license, ask yourself what they did *not* > end up releasing. Ask yourself why the open source parts are not ready > to bootstrap a competitive system, or why they are released under > licenses that Sun can make sure they control. > > So the _last_ thing they want to do is to release the interesting stuff > under GPLv2 (quite frankly, I think the only really interesting thing they > have is ZFS, and even there, I suspect we'd be better off talking to > NetApp, and seeing if they are interested in releasing WAFL for Linux). > > Yes, they finally released Java under GPLv2, and they should be commended > for that. But you should also ask yourself why, and why it took so long. > Maybe it had something to do with the fact that other Java implementations > started being more and more relevant? > > Am I cynical? Yes. Do I expect people to act in their own interests? Hell > yes! That's how things are _supposed_ to happen. I'm not at all berating > Sun, what I'm trying to do here is to wake people up who seem to be living > in some dream-world where Sun wants to help people. > > So to Sun, a GPLv3-only release would actually let them look good, and > still keep Linux from taking their interesting parts, and would allow them > to take at least parts of Linux without giving anything back (ahh, the > joys of license fragmentation). > > Of course, they know that. And yes, maybe ZFS is worthwhile enough that > I'm willing to go to the effort of trying to relicense the kernel. But > quite frankly, I can almost guarantee that Sun won't release ZFS under the > GPLv3 even if they release other parts. Because if they did, they'd lose > the patent protection. > > And yes, I'm cynical, and yes, I hope I'm wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'll > very happily retract anything cynical I said about Sun. They _have_ done > great things, and maybe I'm just too pessimistic about all the history > I've seen of Sun with open source. > > The _good_ news is that Jonathan Schwartz actually does seem to have made > a difference, and I hope to God he is really as serious about > open-sourcing things as he says he is. And don't get me wrong: I think a > truly open-source GPLv3 Solaris would be a really really _good_ thing, > even if it does end up being a one-way street as far as code is concerned! > > Linus > One more time,agreed ;-) Regards, Tarkan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/