Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1753158AbXFNFvp (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:51:45 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751685AbXFNFvi (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:51:38 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([66.187.233.31]:38066 "EHLO mx1.redhat.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750970AbXFNFvh (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:51:37 -0400 To: Daniel Hazelton Cc: Linus Torvalds , Lennart Sorensen , Greg KH , debian developer , "david\@lang.hm" , Tarkan Erimer , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton , mingo@elte.hu Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 References: <200706132042.02728.dhazelton@enter.net> <200706132347.42371.dhazelton@enter.net> From: Alexandre Oliva Organization: Red Hat OS Tools Group Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:51:13 -0300 In-Reply-To: <200706132347.42371.dhazelton@enter.net> (Daniel Hazelton's message of "Wed\, 13 Jun 2007 23\:47\:42 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.990 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 5026 Lines: 123 On Jun 14, 2007, Daniel Hazelton wrote: > I've never had a reason to want to change the way any device like a TiVO > works. So I can't comment on this. Have you never wanted to improve any aspect of the software in your cell phone? In your TV, VCR, DVD player, anything? In the microwave oven, maybe? > On Wednesday 13 June 2007 22:38:05 Alexandre Oliva wrote: >> In 95% of the desktop computers, you can't make changes to the OS that >> runs on it. Whom is this good for? > Faulty logic. I have yet to find a computer that I couldn't change the OS on. I was not talking about installing another OS, I was talking about making changes to the OS. As in, improving one particular driver, avoiding a blue screen, stuff like that. > Or do you mean "transferring the recorded copies off the TiVO > and on to a different medium"? Sure. Such that I can watch shows while wasting time in public transportation, in an airplane, whatever. > DRM, I do agree, gets in the way of "Fair Use". And the fact that TiVO can be, and has been modified remotely to add restrictions on what users could do, means nothing you do with it is safe. You, and everything you've recorded with the TiVO, are at the mercy of this one company. > So you're not concerned that you're potentially pushing companies > that would otherwise be major consumers of GPL'd software away? That > doesn't make sense to me. What would their consuming GPL software buy us, if they won't respect users' freedoms, which is the very reason behind the GPL? Heck, if they don't want to play by the rules, that's up to them. But then they shouldn't use the software at all. Yeah, I wish they'd rather play by the rules, but if they don't want to, too bad, for us and for them. > Why should I repeat Linus' explanation of the ways that GPLv3 violates the > spirit of GPLv2? Don't worry about parrotting here, he hasn't provided that explanation yet ;-) Please give it a try. BTW, what license is Linux licensed under? It's GPLv2 plus userland exception, right? (There's some additional module exception, right?) > And why shouldn't I pose it as a matter of "Personal Taste"? The > biggest and most powerful voice in the FSF says "I don't like > Tivoization" and "I don't like DRM" and when the GPLv3 appears it > has language that makes those violations of the license. Have you ever wondered *why* he doesn't like them? Could it possibly be because they harm the goal of his life, which is to enable people to live their digital lives in freedom? > Just like people have started using "GNU/Linux" or "GNU+Linux" to > refer to Linux No, no, you got it wrong. Linux is the kernel. GNU was the nearly-complete operating system it fit in. GNU+Linux is a complete operating system. And you don't have to believe me, believe Linus, the initial author of Linux: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01 Although linux is a complete kernel Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used with linux are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. > A "TiVO" is not, and has never been, a "General Purpose > Computational Device". Err... Last I looked it was a bunch of general-purpose components, packaged in a way that made it not look like a general-purpose computer. Who gets to decide? And with what motivations? > Exactly. And I don't see anything about a TiVO (or any device that, like a > TiVO, requires binaries that run on it to be digitally signed) that stops you > from exercising the "freedoms" guaranteed by the GPL. 2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it >> > if you upload a modified linux kernel to your wireless router that >> > gives it a 2000 foot range, you've just broken the law >> At which point, you get punished by the law system. > But the GPLv2 gives companies a chance to protect themselves from legal > actions by people that are sure to follow. So does the GPLv3. It might be a bit narrower, to cut on other kinds of abuses, but all constraints I'm aware of that are mandated by law can still be achieved. The point is to forbid disrespecting users' freedoms to modify the software. Configuration parameters for the hardware, needed to comply with regulations, can be easily taken care of without disrespecting users' freedoms. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/