Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752140AbXFNNZZ (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:25:25 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751399AbXFNNZN (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:25:13 -0400 Received: from mx3.mail.elte.hu ([157.181.1.138]:43621 "EHLO mx3.mail.elte.hu" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750901AbXFNNZL (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:25:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:24:57 +0200 From: Ingo Molnar To: Bernd Paysan Cc: Alan Cox , Daniel Hazelton , Alexandre Oliva , Linus Torvalds , Greg KH , debian developer , david@lang.hm, Tarkan Erimer , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 Message-ID: <20070614132457.GB29423@elte.hu> References: <466A3EC6.6030706@netone.net.tr> <20070614112329.3645c397@the-village.bc.nu> <20070614103846.GA7902@elte.hu> <200706141328.00798.bernd.paysan@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200706141328.00798.bernd.paysan@gmx.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.14 (2007-02-12) X-ELTE-VirusStatus: clean X-ELTE-SpamScore: -2.0 X-ELTE-SpamLevel: X-ELTE-SpamCheck: no X-ELTE-SpamVersion: ELTE 2.0 X-ELTE-SpamCheck-Details: score=-2.0 required=5.9 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=no SpamAssassin version=3.0.3 -2.0 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3788 Lines: 76 * Bernd Paysan wrote: > On Thursday 14 June 2007 12:38, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > that's fine, but the fundamental question is: where is the moral > > boundary of the power that the copyright license gives? The FSF seems to > > believe "nowhere, anything that copyright law allows us to achieve our > > goals is a fair game" - and the GPLv3 shows that belief. I dont > > subscribe to that view. I think the proper limit is the boundary where > > the limit of the software is - because that's the only sane and globally > > workable way to stop the power-hungry. I.e. the information we produce > > is covered by the rules of the GPL. It might be used in ways > > inconvenient to us, it might be put on hardware we dont like (be that a > > Tivo, a landmine or an abortion instrument) but that does not change the > > fundamental fact: it's outside the _moral scope_ of our power. > > Where is the boundary between hard- and software? [...] this is largely irrelevant to my argument: the FSF is clearly trying to extend the scope of the GPL to restrict the distribution of certain hardware+software combinations. The FSF is not really arguing that the boundary between software and hardware is diffuse. (which btw. it clearly is) The FSF simply wants to be able to say via the GPLv3: "to be able to distribute GPL-ed software, the hardware is required to do this and this". please note an important thing here: "required to do this and this" is the _precise antithesis_ of "freedom". The only significant restriction on freedom the GPLv2 allows is that the covered work (the software) is not to be restricted. And that is a fair deal. Even if any additional restrictions would otherwise be for the "common good" and would further "freedom" in creative ways. If the FSF's argument and approach was correct then it would be fine to add these restrictions to GPLv4: - do not distribute non-GPL-compatible software with GPL software on the same hardware. - send at least 10 free samples of the hardware to the FSF headquarters. (after all true freedom is only achieved if developers are not only allowed to modify the hardware, but are allowed to test it as well, for the freedom of the community.) - donate $10 to the FSF. - spray "Linus sucks because he stole RMS's GNU thunder in the 90s and never gave it back!" graffiti on 3 separate walls in your neighborhood. Each of these items is an additional restriction on either the hardware+software combination that is being distributed or on the person who does the distribution, and each of these items - some abstractly, some more directly - advance a notion of the "four GNU freedoms" in some way. And each of these items has a basis in copyright law and might be legally put into a license and might be enforceable. (ok, probably not the last item ;) think about it, the list of things that one can do via license to "achieve more freedom" just doesnt stop! My point is: it has to stop at the only boundary that makes sense, and which boundary is clearly spelled out in the spirit and in the letter of the GPLv2: "our work is our work, your work is your work". Any additional restriction to "help achieve more freedom" just puts us into divisive political and moralistic games that will only fracture us, that will eventually erode the value of our software and hence makes any 'power' we have over that software meaningless in the real world. In the end no-one but the Microsofts of this world will win. Ingo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/