Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1757327AbXFOCUi (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:20:38 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1753021AbXFOCU3 (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:20:29 -0400 Received: from smtp2.linux-foundation.org ([207.189.120.14]:53871 "EHLO smtp2.linux-foundation.org" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751038AbXFOCU2 (ORCPT ); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:20:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:19:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Linus Torvalds To: Alexandre Oliva cc: Rob Landley , Bernd Paysan , Alan Milnes , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <466A3EC6.6030706@netone.net.tr> <200706141744.08408.bernd.paysan@gmx.de> <200706141917.58824.rob@landley.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3369 Lines: 80 On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, Alexandre Oliva wrote: > > It's disappointing that I took so much of everyone's time without > achieving any of my goals. What do you expect, when you tried to entertain a legal picture of the GPLv2 that even the FSF counsel doesn't believe in? I will state one more time: I think that what Tivo did was and is: (a) perfectly legal wrt the GPLv2 (and I have shown multiple times why your arguments don't hold logical water - if you actually followed them yourself, you wouldn't be using a redhat.com email address!) (b) not just legally right, but perfectly morally right too (it wasn't some underhanded "trick" thing - it was following the spirit _and_ the letter of the law) (c) the only reasonable thing many companies *can* do in the face of laws and regulations and entities like the RIAA/MPAA. and you should admit that the fact that the FSF counsel says that it couldn't sue Tivo in the US, it means that while my standpoint may not be the _only_ possible one, I'm certainly not "confused" about (a) above. The (b) and (c) points are not "legal" points, they are about the fact that quite often, morality and practicality are independent of legality, and you should never see law as being the *only* thing that matters. So the reason I bring them up is that it wasn't just "legally ok", they also had good *reasons* for doing it, and there was no hanky-panky about it! In fact, I consider Tivo one of the good guys, because they were one of the few people that had things like the GPLv2 actually printed out and clearly stated IN THE MAIN PAPER MANUAL. In the very first version of their box. Without anybody twisting any arms at all. IOW, Tivo really did everything right. I personally think that they were even classy about it. And that's my opinion. THINK about that for a moment. THINK about the fact that I am the original copyright holder in the main software project they used, and that I state that as neither having ever gotten paid _or_ owning any stock what-so-ever in Tivo. Dammit, if I cannot say that I think what they did was fine, who can? So pause there for a moment, and really *think* about the above. Stop seeing Tivo as "the devil". [ Wait a few seconds here, thinking! ] Now, we both agree that GPLv3 would change the situation wrt Tivo, don't we? [ Wait a few more seconds here, thinking about what that means, taking the above into consideration ] ..so given that I think that what Tivo did is *fine*, the GPLv3 "solution" is not a solution at all, is it? Quite the reverse. It's a unnecessary restriction that doesn't actually solve anything at all, it just adds problems of its own. And yet you claim that you cannot understand why I (and others) would consider the GPLv3 to be a "worse" license. It is *obviously* worse to anybody who thought that "Tivoization" wasn't a problem in the first place! .. but I guess you'll ignore that argument, the way you ignored all the other ones too, and continue to blame your lack of understanding on me being "confused" about the issue. Linus - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/